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Post by mishimayukio on Nov 18, 2005 3:03:12 GMT
Personally I dont like it at all, being part of the night shift I often find it hard to find people to party with at 2 AM or so when leveling a new character. Now its going to be the same with levels 40+? I vote no.
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Post by Rodor on Nov 18, 2005 6:25:31 GMT
I vote no on the basis that the LL's don't mean didley squat, ESPECIALLY for my characters. The difference between 780K xp for Abraxas and 18 million XP is about 7 AC... bring my total AC up to... *drumroll* 107 AC!!
My str based gnoll has more AC than this, and he's a simple level 40 and could probably kick his dragon ass.
Also, I *LIKE* going to the Abyss... having a level 47 character means that I no longer can since no fresh immo party would ever party with me. If this change goes into effect, I'm going to delete my characters just to restart them so I don't level past 46. EVER.
The real difference in power is in the items you use and how you built your character. Since it has already been stated that the LLs cannot count towards requirements for these things, then I don't see the point for restricting them. People who aren't ready for ssith at level 40, won't be ready at level 60. If they're not ready, it means just simply not that good aka. spacehead OR there's a fundamental problem with their build, and you only get 40 levels to fix that. A dragon build for example is totally F@%$'ed at level 40 for ssith, and still totally F!@#'ed at level 60.
A level 40 using earth mother and a lvl 60 using earth mother only differ by an amount of AB/AC under 10, depending on what u go for. Having more HP only delays the inevitable in a losing battle.
One last point to make: night crew. There are not enough people on to do this. You mentioned in a previous post that you would also consider a party cap of 10 as an alternative. You say its no good because it doesnt provide any benefits over 6 player party limit, but you obviously aren't on at the times I'm on. I have hard enough trouble as it is now trying to FOUR people to join my party let alone 10. I don't know if you realize this or not, but when you weren't on the past week or so when this thing was getting developed, no one, and I mean no one went to ssith because they couldn't form a big enough party.
A proposed change: All level 40s should be allowed to party with other level 40s, without exception. However, those who have not reached 40, must be within 6 levels of the LL they are with, for example: level 34 cannot party with LL 1 level 39 can at most party with LL 5. A level 40 can party with a level 60. The difference in power here, as I argue it, is insignifigant.
I don't mind so much that dragon's AC totally sucks and that LL's don't help me an ounce... I can build dexers like everyone else to get around this. But this... this change.. really f'ing blows. It's now 1:30 and if you'd like me to express more disagreement with this you'll have to get my comments from a tell.
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Post by Lord FlashHeart on Nov 18, 2005 10:57:13 GMT
A dragon build for example is totally F@%$'ed at level 40 for ssith, and still totally F!@#'ed at level 60. I disagree with you on this Rodor, 107 is only 4 lower than what non-dexer builds have to cope with (they cant get higher than 111). On top of this if you use the right gear you can reduce the phys damge to single figures (probably absolute 0 with Ghodric as he's DD based) meaning its only elemental damage you have to worry about. Dragons cant be critted by the Slabs, they can be absolutely immune to electric without that elusive dachy ring, they halt time-stops (though not for much longer I hear), they can reach well over 1000hp and I've managed to get my ranger dragon up to AB 71 against his racial enemies. They also have super high saves. I can get the damage down to about 30 per hit (even less if i use the epic warding on the druid staff - although that doesnt last long) which is easy to cope with if you have over 1000hp, just accept that you will get hit and keep a stack of heals quickslotted. The absolute biggest problem I have for dragons in Sssriths is being too large and finding it really hard resisting the temptation to stamp the living daylights out of those bloody snakes when theres party members near without the leccy immune ring.
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Post by hiryuu on Nov 18, 2005 21:55:51 GMT
Hmm... does Palemaster's Boneskin stack with the dragon shape's AC bonus?
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Post by Rodor on Nov 18, 2005 23:58:55 GMT
I disagree with you on this Rodor, 107 is only 4 lower than what non-dexer builds have to cope with (they cant get higher than 111). On top of this if you use the right gear you can reduce the phys damge to single figures (probably absolute 0 with Ghodric as he's DD based) meaning its only elemental damage you have to worry about. Dragons cant be critted by the Slabs, they can be absolutely immune to electric without that elusive dachy ring, they halt time-stops (though not for much longer I hear), they can reach well over 1000hp and I've managed to get my ranger dragon up to AB 71 against his racial enemies. They also have super high saves. I can get the damage down to about 30 per hit (even less if i use the epic warding on the druid staff - although that doesnt last long) which is easy to cope with if you have over 1000hp, just accept that you will get hit and keep a stack of heals quickslotted. The absolute biggest problem I have for dragons in Sssriths is being too large and finding it really hard resisting the temptation to stamp the living daylights out of those bloody snakes when theres party members near without the leccy immune ring. Couple things. You're not really disagreeing with me, you're only enumerating advantages that dragons have, and failing to leave out their disadvantages. Physical damage is not a factor, especially for new areas, even Ghodric's HP drops very rapidly if I'm targeted, his dragon AB is also too low for ssith (requires druid to start = low BAB, no favored enemies, and lacks an uber +14 rapier). I don't even play him anymore since his human shape doesn't have a quiver and bow that's reliable. Further, the HP boost of dragons is not all that mighty, Abraxas has 829 in human, 1089 in dragon form (#s from level 40). You must also consider for LL's that the constitution boon of a dragon is NOT factored in, it's still +con boost x 40, my HP will always differ by 250, not by a ratio of 8/11. Super high saves... yes they do have these, but there's a fundemental problem with this, see below. Dragon disadvantages for people who don't know: 1. no scrolls, no items, no scrolls. Any buffs I cast on myself before I shift are soon gone and I have no way of replenishing them without deshifting. Do I really need to explain this one further? 2. CANNOT SWITCH EQUIPMENT DURING BATTLE. This by far, especially for ssithrak, has been my biggest problem. The dragon types HAVE all those advantages as told by Flash for this. For ssithrak, I must wear the ice imm ring and water breathing ring at all times. Any other player can switch weapon/shield/ring to match whatever the dragon would have had and fight on the same level or higher level. Not to mention bows for long range, and now necessary, combat. 3. Size. Is it possible to get across the ssith bridge? I tried for a little while then gave up. 4. AC... the actual max AC for a dragon with 30 wisdom is 90 AC. EMA, which is almost always on us, gives us the crucial +10 for 100. If you die though, which isn't too hard to die in ssith, you lose that +10, and rely on a potentially crappy +5 from barkskin. Ew. 5. Death... if you do die, you suffer the AC penalty as described above, but you're also ragdoll now. This is a known bioware bug and is clearly shown on class/info board. A teammate can't ressurect you and expect you to immediately fight again. 6. Stat dependencies. A dexer only has to worry about their +12 dex and +12 con and enough str to carry the shit on their back. A dragon type on the otherhand needs +12 str to get the most AB, +12 dex and +12 wis to get up to 90 AC, and +12 con to get the most HP. And since I can't switch equipment in battle, I must always wear the immunity rings and take a hit in atleast one of these areas (pending better equipment). 7. Legendary levels. I'm also considering dragons to be at disadvantage here, they gain some benefit, but not nearly as much as ANY other class. They get +AC and +HP (but as described above, not as much HP as they should get). Everyone else gets what they want/need. My wizard and druid based dragons would love to increase their AB since it's their weakest feature, but I can't. Remember, not everyone is a Ranger-based dragon Flash...
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Post by Rodor on Nov 19, 2005 0:01:56 GMT
Hmm... does Palemaster's Boneskin stack with the dragon shape's AC bonus? Yes Hiryuu, it does. But to do such a thing is foolish. It would require a build of Druid / Arcane / PM. Due to a lack of monk wis to AC bonus, your AC would drop 16 points. Also, your AB and # of attacks would suck (dragons are unarmed and benefit from monk attacks). No evasion either. This would be a terrible dragon.
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Post by Lord FlashHeart on Nov 19, 2005 11:05:27 GMT
He he I really dont find staying alive that hard with my dragon in ssriths (maybe your partying with bad players?) but I have noticed my damage output is pretty bad even with the ranger rap, whereas melee types rely on crits to do decent damage a dragon can only get 19-20x2 crit range at most, even with dragon strength most of the physical is absorbed, as is the divine on the raps, this damage would be even worse for non ranger based dragons who would have lower ab and not as good selection of damages (is it still god gloves or sea mother if you cant use earth mothers rage?) The size thing is a problem, you cant get across the ssrith bridge or the one in the arcane academy
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Post by FunkySwerve on Nov 19, 2005 18:52:38 GMT
You're not really disagreeing with me, you're only enumerating advantages that dragons have, and failing to leave out their disadvantages. No, that's WHY he disagrees, because he isn't fixated only on the negatives. Or pissed because his once-overpowered favorite class is now underpowered *cough* *cough*. Or bitter about a silly +14 rap. I've said it before, I'll say it again, rangers will not remain quite so popular, after the next few updates. Anyway, on the substance of the topic, dragons did fall a bit further behind in LL, and were a bit behind already. I'm looking into a few options to bring them up to speed again. This includes adding natural ac to shifted form, and possibley making a second set of dragon shapes if I can swing that (unsure if requires hak). Your post was very helpful though, because I now see a few other ways to help out dragons. One of the forthcoming changes is new feats for LLs. For these I had in mind Legendary Spell Focuses, Penetration, and a few others. I could also, however, open up creature weapon feats for PCs, like improved critical and EWF. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Nov 19, 2005 19:31:43 GMT
A proposed change: All level 40s should be allowed to party with other level 40s, without exception. However, those who have not reached 40, must be within 6 levels of the LL they are with, for example: level 34 cannot party with LL 1 level 39 can at most party with LL 5. A level 40 can party with a level 60. The difference in power here, as I argue it, is insignifigant. This is one of the things that playtest has shown to be false. With LLs, I can now complete the academy in a group of 3, whereas it took 8 or so before. Now, not ALL of this change is due to LL, but most of it is, since I have only altered my tactics and not my gear since that. It raises ab, ac, dcs, and saves for most characters. Youre not getting ab because of the dragon shift, but 3 outta four isn't bad (dcs are a wash for all noncaster classes). See my remarks about fixing shifters/druids for LL above, that should deal with the ab problem. Knowing HOW to approach the areas is also a giant boon. As with all new areas, there's a learning curve. People used to complain that the maze was too hard, for instance. In any event, it simply doesn't require a horde to survive the Ssithraks anymore. On a more general note, bear in mind that until major area additions are complete, and other changes like random loot, the server will be in a state of flux, so what looks imbalanced or overpowering now may well appear balanced or even underpowered later. Funky
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Post by Rodor on Nov 19, 2005 20:31:54 GMT
He he I really dont find staying alive that hard with my dragon in ssriths (maybe your partying with bad players?) but I have noticed my damage output is pretty bad even with the ranger rap, whereas melee types rely on crits to do decent damage a dragon can only get 19-20x2 crit range at most, even with dragon strength most of the physical is absorbed, as is the divine on the raps, this damage would be even worse for non ranger based dragons who would have lower ab and not as good selection of damages (is it still god gloves or sea mother if you cant use earth mothers rage?) The size thing is a problem, you cant get across the ssrith bridge or the one in the arcane academy Staying alive and being helpful to your party are 2 completely different things. I've turned Abraxas into a complete zen archery build now. Sure those 14 druid levels probably would've been better off as AA at this point and my dex could be a bit higher for more AC, but that's irrelevant. The point is: that I am far more effective in human form than my dragon could possibly hope to be. The electricity immunity from dragon is a non-issue since the snakes can be charmed with my 93 animal empathy. I could also, however, open up creature weapon feats for PCs, like improved critical and EWF. Funky This is uncessary, it is treated as "unarmed"
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Post by hiryuu on Nov 19, 2005 22:11:16 GMT
Or bitter about a silly +14 rap. My 'issue' with it isn't the +14, but rather the damage quality. Magic/Divine/Positive/Sonic is, AFAIK, the largest and most consistent damage output in the mod. Not even Ssithrak gear boasts that kind of power, and it only takes 25 class levels to get. Sorc secret is cute and all, but it requires 35 levels and barely competes with Dachy gear. 5/+10? If you somehow missed Stoneskin, Greater Stoneskin, Premonition, and Ethereal Visage, your sorc deserves to die.
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Post by Lord FlashHeart on Nov 20, 2005 11:28:55 GMT
This is uncessary, it is treated as "unarmed" That is how it seems but it is not actually correct, its another one of those things that bears out on the character sheet but not in the battle log. For some reason the unarmed weapon focus and epic weapon do NOT affect your dragon forms AB (although it appears so on the sheet), but unarmed improved critical does. I read about this on the bioware site and was skeptical so I created 2 identical builds, 1 with weap focus + epic weapon focus unarmed and one without, when I checked the battle log the abs were exactly the same. Here's the thread from bioware I read that motivated me to check it: nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=452749&forum=42&highlight=dragon+shape
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Post by Lord FlashHeart on Nov 20, 2005 11:33:01 GMT
5/+10? If you somehow missed Stoneskin, Greater Stoneskin, Premonition, and Ethereal Visage, your sorc deserves to die. Lol my sorc has none of those and is tougher than beef jerky.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Nov 21, 2005 3:06:34 GMT
Yup I read a similar post about a year ago, I think the critter weapon profs will work, but will of course test them first.
Funky
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