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Post by chirality on Dec 2, 2020 1:46:05 GMT
it's easy to forget that the fundamental NWN system rewards "dual wielding" more than anything else due to the mechanics of d20. despite the obvious and easily-identifiable sacrifices inherent in dual wielding (spending precious extra feats, AB penalties), ultimately the combat of NWN boils down to APR > everything (until a huge flat % bonus was applied post-facto) and AC/AB > everything. it's one of the core principles of NWN metagame to understand that AB + 1d20 is a curve that rewards certain factors, and that Dex being allowed to serve as both AC and AB source is far more beneficial than anything else.
this lack of meaningful incentivization for 2hing in an environment ruled by survivability, APR, and exo/ele/unresistable packets, of course, is essentially why the 2h% was invented in the first place (and, long before, why other AC sources for non-shield/non-dex/non-monk builds was custom-implemented for "tank" classes lacking viable build paths for not using a shield or a monk splash+dex)--because dual wielding, especially combined with monk AC/APR, on dexers, was so much better than everything else. much like the far-too-weak 2h vanilla 1.5 Str mod, and core numerical principles of 3e, failing to truly account for "high-level" play in an overblown world of NWN, the concept of glasscannon 2h tanks as a precedent fails to account for the fact that dual wielding really only exists under conditions that either allow tanks to attain enough AC/conceal/soak to survive without dex+wis combined, or face ABs low enough that non-dex builds are viable.
dual wielding as a build concept without monk splash and finesse simply hasn't been granted breathing room to flourish yet on HG, but why shouldn't it be provided with the same habitat, when all we stand to lose the stress/unhappiness/unfamiliarity of a nerf pendulum's endless swing, and unfamiliar meta ground? at stake to gain is another step of evolution towards a fully better balanced "tank"/melee ecosystem which truly rewards nuance and run variety matched to build variety, rather than flavor-of-the-month one-size-fits all convenience.
consider that dual wielding and dexers have been incrementally buffed in recent years, post-2h%, to help even out the playing field. don't forget that power creep is largely the reason 2hers even exist as viable "tanks" in the first place, even with limbo finally being fully integrated into the average player's experience and realm of buildcrafting.
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Post by bloodthirst on Dec 2, 2020 2:23:04 GMT
At first glance, as a non-limbo runner due to time and time zone constraints, the decrease in limbo spawns/ increase in canos to make up for the damage nerfs amounts to four fifths of the proverbial while abyss and hells just became more of a slog.
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Post by TJ on Dec 2, 2020 2:25:23 GMT
the cano/spawn changes work out to the exact same cano drop rate. 100% - 20% = 80%, and 80% * 125% is 100%. exact same cano counts
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 3:31:50 GMT
The damage changes don't account for the paragon parties required to do Limbo, or just generally how good Hell / Abyss / Limbo all felt with tank damage. All of that has taken a step backward in a significant way. I understand the basis for it, but it simply doesn't make it any better. Tanks, casters, or a combination party specifically in Hell / Abyss all felt good. You could do what you wanted, which you still can, it's just craptacular on damage again. I for one loved the bulk of the patch. It's very exciting. I loved the standardization of the APRs, I love the gear flex afford to HS boots and tanks in general. I dislike the damage % change and the harper scout boots change. It's clear I'm in the minority and how I feel won't make any differences.
I very much understand from a developer POV the need for variety and diversity. Just like I feel the XR subraces being blocked by such a significant barrier as 80 hurts the server, the current meta was doing the same with so much filtering into such a narrow doorway. Things stagnate and growth is needed. I would have preferred to see it done differently. I also understand more is coming, etc. etc. So, it all could change. The % damage change should have been tied to those other things though. And harper scout boots need longer duration. They're so niche now its worthless. Not even lasting the duration of most boss fights.
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Post by Pulpo on Dec 2, 2020 4:38:58 GMT
My other HUGE issue with all of this is that I have no way of testing ANY of this. I have no classes that have been edited and am FAR FAR FAR away from bringing any toons to Limbo. Hell it took me 8 months of work to get my Limbo team qualified to play well enough to not be carries (Thats 4 of them FYI). In other words I cant play the new Meta due to how long of a time investment it would take to be able to actually play the new make-up to Quantify and Qualify an Opinion. My ONLY frame of reference is the 2h tanks I have played almost daily for those 8 months to get to where I am at. Being able to give an educated opinion about these changes will take months and that doesnt guarantee that I will even LIKE it enough to play it. Lots of unknowns here. We will, of course, move on but its going to be work. Hell the new edits maybe even be totally different if your playing an XR sub or BUR so yea, there is that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 7:07:49 GMT
My 2 cents. Flexibility of the mind is the key to a healthy life: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2998793/Forgive me, I am in full school mode. There is some serious goodness in this update and lots more to come, yay! That this game is still humming is AMAZING! Step back, take a low, slow breath. Feel it enter your nose and fill your lungs. Center yourself. Now think: This is the start of a new tomorrow! And seriously, look at the long view. Broaden your perspective. There are so many great options again. We have Mechanus to look forward to. All that cano hunting with OP toons has made peeps a bit myopic and spoiled. Thank you to the Devs for the tireless effort to allow us to play a GAME! If you are still sour after reading this post, perhaps you need a break. It is quite refreshing to come off of one I am hoping this is not considered a derail... Ray
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Post by Tru3Fals3 on Dec 3, 2020 5:25:24 GMT
i see a lot of fun new opportunities with the changes and i look forward to seeing what i can do with the new stuff
was bored of the old stuff anyways!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 10:20:25 GMT
Refreshing changes for what was a *very* stale metagame for years. There's always a "best build", and any attempt to balance things will change that. One of the most interesting things about a game that receives patches is that sometimes things get shaken up and you need to figure out what will be the next "best build" for the future. Yes, the 28 Fighter/7 WM/5 Harper damage-dealing god is no longer the damage-dealing god, and by definition it will be slower at runs than it used to. Use your brains and figure out new party combinations, and then reincarnate. (I appreciate that it's especially easy for me to say that since I didn't have any toons nerfed ) Though for what it's worth, I agree with needing XR book changes (and we spent 4+ years suggesting ideas like P2 Hard tag granting XR access, removal of 2-book requirement, lower level req etc)
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Post by horbag on Dec 3, 2020 11:45:11 GMT
at first i was upset about the changes to the tanks, wrap no longer usefull, damage lowered, but then i didn't notice a single difference when playing, i still felt usefull and i still did my job very well, the changes are minimal and do not have a huge impact imho
if these are that breaking for limbo maby come up with a different plan to tackle that area, as this is end game and should have a balanced party not just tanks. i for one like the patch on all fronts (well maby not the uselessness of a wrap but now i have a reason to use my XR cloak ^^ )
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Post by Paradoom on Dec 3, 2020 12:16:34 GMT
My thoughts on the wrap change: The wrap aint useless but lost alot of its former glory. It is now a nice nich item for tier 2 melee classes like monks, rogues, stormlords and shadowdancers with all the feats for two weapon fighting. It was too unbalanced and you were in a sense "forced" to have and use it. This opens up the cloak slot on tanks. Buffs from casters have now a much bigger impact and value. Overall this enforces a better teamplay and shifts the use to those classes which are in need. A really good change. Also (yeah im biased as I luv to play it) DWDs certainly increased their value with this indirectly. Mobs stay alive longer, so you need something sturdier. Also the damage output difference should no longer be that extreme between this and 2-hander tanks. Now I canĀ“t wait to get this armor update rolling in!
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 3, 2020 16:04:33 GMT
This opens up the cloak slot on tanks. This is the main reason we made the edit. When something - a class combo, skill or spell edit, or an item, to name a few - is so powerful, it obviates the use of everything else. Funky
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Post by Pulpo on Dec 3, 2020 22:47:28 GMT
Ok SOOOOO I am doing this deep dive in the new changes and My Head is Ploding (*Pun) with the Assasin. 1. Penetrating stike not being integrated gives you double KB on hits, the hit and the Pen Strike, is that planned? Will Assn take KB from DoT or Penalty lowering Poisons? Is there any plans on endgame poisons dropping in a convinient (easy) place like Town Store or make poison like a Hone ability ? Trying to change OUR endgame make up and add variety. These are mostly questions induced by the patch which is why I felt them appropriate here. Please move if it isnt. Thanks )
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 3, 2020 23:29:02 GMT
Ok SOOOOO I am doing this deep dive in the new changes and My Head is Ploding (*Pun) with the Assasin. 1. Penetrating stike not being integrated gives you double KB on hits, the hit and the Pen Strike, is that planned? Will Assn take KB from DoT or Penalty lowering Poisons? Is there any plans on endgame poisons dropping in a convinient (easy) place like Town Store or make poison like a Hone ability ? Trying to change OUR endgame make up and add variety. These are mostly questions induced by the patch which is why I felt them appropriate here. Please move if it isnt. Thanks ) We were just discussing both poison availability and the double packets in team chat this hour. Once concern with undoubling the packets is that Assassins may become too strong. WMs now excel at handling kb'ers, and assassins not so much. I don't see that as a bad thing, if it's not a massive impediment to the class. For poisons, we were talking crafting. No idea where we will land on these issues yet. One thing I will say is my main focus is on fixing broken stuff and letting the current edits settle a little. Some of the edits are likely to have knock-on effects. Perinarch, for example, has been reworked to inflict broad damage resistance reduction, which should help dexers. That doesn't mean you shouldn't propose edits, however, just that they are unlikely to be made for a month or two unless they are a) minor in impact and b) thematically fitting - see, e.g., another thread today re Stormlords getting Storm Tower. Funky
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Post by chirality on Dec 3, 2020 23:52:26 GMT
I think poisons are in a pretty good spot, lately. Logistical hassle is part of the deal, so acquisition hassle may as well be, too. I think any bg/ass player would dearly love to just be able to buy each and every poison in a quick walk from the boat, but atm it's at least a tiny little carrot for "exploration" and doing things other than hell/abyss/cano grinds nonstop.
Penetrating Strike really needs to be integrated, much like Whetstone's eventual implementation. Even with current/recent/pending/future shifts in mob resist statting, the fact that it simply doesn't "penetrate" is a very harsh dynamic. If the worry is that it would be too strong, it could always be tuned down, but ever since manticore spikes forced mobs to essentially laugh off these sorts of phys packets, the class feature is pretty bad.
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Post by yune on Dec 3, 2020 23:53:11 GMT
Assassins would be better if the Penetrating Strike damage was removed entirely. Against most mobs it does no damage so it's all downside. Assassins can be worse than Weapon Masters for kickback, but should they be uniquely worse than every other class?
For poisons, I'd like them to be infinite use but bind on first use. Only one poison at a time per weapon, which is probably already the case. They'd be similar to epodes then.
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