Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 17:59:32 GMT
Woqued captured what I would have liked to said in a way I never could have. Thank you sir.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 18:02:18 GMT
Woqued captured what I would have liked to said in a way I never could have. Thank you sir. I think there might be a little groupthink going on. Digest my response, and then take a stab. Funky
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Dec 7, 2020 18:40:49 GMT
How it 'feels' (referencing our earlier comment, as well as the unsupported contentions of this quote) is not of interest to me in the slightest, at least in the short run, because of post-nerf blues. What matters is its actual impact on builds and runs, which will vary by situation. Are we talking about people speedrunning Limbo with fairly homogenous parties and no cleric, or balanced parties? The value of the HS attack is going to vary based on the availability of alternatives. Well it feels too complicated - (Dexterity Modifier + Charisma Modifier)/2. And underwhelming while leveling. At level 70 a dexter would have like 20 rounds , while a smiter would have like 15 rounds and someone who is neither 10 rounds. As pointed out, only Paladins, Blackguards and maybe Dragon Disciples could benefit from the CHA scaling. Barbarians, Monks, Fighters, AA, DD and maybe Lash want to have harper regularly. With that in mind I'd assert 3 things: 1 - It doesn't seem that the CHA scaling is hitting the right classes (is your intention preventing fighters and monks from splashing harper?) 2 - The dexterity scaling is interesting - to give something to dexters. (But then, the Blinding speed feat could have the built in attack bonus to get them closer to str tanks.) 3 - Won't bio still make the "duration balance" pointless anyway?
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 19:15:01 GMT
At level 70 a dexter would have like 20 rounds , while a smiter would have like 15 rounds and someone who is neither 10 rounds. How are you arriving at these numbers? They appear much lower than I projected. Not specifically. It's attribute-based, not class based, though there's going to be some necessary linkage. Which classes do you think are 'the right classes'? Only if bios had no acquisition cost associated with them. Very weird notion. Funky
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Dec 7, 2020 21:16:01 GMT
I learned something off this! I re-checked the stacking explained thread and had it wrong, so there were thoughts based on stuff not reality in there.
Now, I'm not really trying to persuade you, I didn't like Harper or Fervor despite considering them strong before the patch and I like them even less now with their nerfed duration - I already considered the previous durations un-fun to play around, and didn't have harper characters leveled past 50 after reincarnating my Barb away from it despite it lowering overall power of the character. I still had Fervor because it was that strong and alleviated the slog of P2 despite not liking it so I like the overall power shift don't get me wrong. However it's a bit odd to throw around groupthink like this since we are playing different playstyles, group setups and don't even partake in the same discords or runs and tend to disagree more often than not on a lot of things in the game, and I am here talking in favour of things I dislike, but based on faulty info (on stacking part). Now, to explain myself again after looking up things:
From the update post: Added Attack effect stacking has been reworked so that only the highest applies. This includes abilities such as Shadow Evade, Divine Wrath, Tymora's Smile, Rallying Cry, Divine Power, Tenser's, and Divine Fervor. It does not include Haste or Mass Haste.
Note how Tymora's Smile, Divine Power, Divine Fervor, Divine Wrath and Shadow Evade all seem to be in the same category. I assumed this would include Improved Heroism (Bard) since it's a DP-like ability, and all of these would be non-stacking with eachother. That wasn't correct, they weren't categorized on that wording in any way. That was my bad.
Upon taking a peek at the "weapon attacks explained" thread, they aren't listed in the same; so Bards may still consider Harper as an option, and Fervor does indeed help CoT/SD. I think it may not be a terrible idea to edit the original update post to reword it, I should do so on my thoughts on the patch thread as well - this despite there being an explanation post of how attacks work elsewhere. It is misleading.
On Harper:
Most likely Harper users as it is, as I mentioned: pala/bg/ftr/barb, as people who use 2h dmg and gaining the most bang for their buck from the extra attacks; also do not have reliable sources of Restoration so gr pots help, do not have access to Harper skills so those help, and are most likely to go STR based and get more free STR either in LLs via plain levelups or via excess bonus feats (in ftrs case), and who do not have overlapping stacking issues with the Splash (this rules out CoT/SD). The ones gaining from STR are also those classes, due to gaining "free" str. Lesser options WM because hard to fit all those feats and WM30; and Monk because not being T1 BAB hurts splashing options with lesser access to Divine Power to alleviate that now. Maybe maybe maybe AAs could be on the list as well but they are so limited in options that it is quite far down the list.
Currently, without any change whatsoever made, I see Paladin/BG as the only Harper splashing classes due natural access and benefit from CHA. STR mod included would add FTR/Barb/Monk (30/5/5 on Monk) in the list, as well as benefiting the Pal/BG who also get free STR in LLs without doing a thing at all, and from Great Smite feats even if they go Cha-based Smiter, regardless of what they do. Other classes are (imo, I could be wrong of course) better off doing something that has nothing to do with Harpering about.
I was wrong about attack stacking in this, so Bards may still splash it but I don't think they benefit as much honestly and stand my ground in this. It is not T1 BAB splash, Bards can't very reasonably go 2h which would benefit the most from the attacks. Doesn't need the skills. Requires 4 T1 lvls, so assuming u go 5 harper requires 31 bard, lose 32 bonus feat, not ideal with limited feat/stat gains on the class; and Bards benefit from CL significantly and already have a lot of buffs to manage. Harper ironwill/alertness costs are somewhat alleviated by the epic feats gained, but meh meh. They almost require Paladin/BG Saves to have enough feats to do anything useful, so that also limits choices. Maybe an Alu-Fiend can pull off harper bard, still not included in the list for "best synergy" by a long shot, despite gaining song points from Harper levels - but I could be wrong here. It is an option nonetheless, unlike what I previously claimed.
Edit: I wasn't wrong, I was right.
"Being less powerful than it is, you are naturally going to feel its effects are disappointing compared to its pre-nerf effects. How it 'feels' (referencing our earlier comment, as well as the unsupported contentions of this quote) is not of interest to me in the slightest, at least in the short run, because of post-nerf blues. What matters is its actual impact on builds and runs, which will vary by situation. Are we talking about people speedrunning Limbo with fairly homogenous parties and no cleric, or balanced parties? The value of the HS attack is going to vary based on the availability of alternatives."
"I don't accept the premise that a pspell, which you get multiple uses of per map (especially with use of bios), is only useful if it lasts an entire map. That seems like pablum for people upset with nerfs, not reasoned analysis." Come on now. Really? Nobody said or wanted that.
On Fervor:
Playtested in two Limbo p1 hard runs. Yes, it isn't a lot of playtesting, so take it as you will. Fervor felt irrelevant on both runs; two minutes is incredibly short. I never claimed it needs to last the whole map; but I don't think you fathom how short 2 minutes is in endgame runs in practice. Even the old duration didn't last an entire map unless you played on easymode and got really lucky with spawns and had a whole group 1,4 multiplier characters with more ele/exo dmg on their weapons than they have now. Then the part about being too hard to balance via duration: the buff is undoubtedly strong, but very situational, now more than before. If it's impossible to find the sweet spot where it's fun to use duration-wise for players and not too strong to give from Dev pov and ends up leading people playing parties with ranger/lash + ftr/ftr/cot/wm/pala + PDK and Fervor parties, then it should probably be reworked was my point.
Then there's having a bigger portion of the party selfbuffing caster tanks with DP 55+ or Improved Heroism (assuming only highest applies, according to Update) significantly reduces the value of Fervor, even if we have ftr/cot/pala/bg/lash/ranger in the mix: the DP/Tenser casters get nothing from it. This was the case before as well, but the relative power of castertanks went significantly up over the last few updates, so they should also likely be more frequent in party setups (good thing), but it does reduce the value of Fervor in the party.
Then there's the cost. I know Mass Haste and Fervor don't compete in terms of stacking, my point was bringing into light the comparison of the mechanical effect of what they grant Fervor is a Paragon Spell Knowledge with a completely useless epic behind it in terms of value from gaining a second use. Then the paragon also has more common and more significant stacking issues with various effects on other party members (anyone with DP effects as opposed to a WC casted haste), compared to the Mass Haste that 4 different classes can cast as a spell with just LSF for 3 attacks, as opposed to this Paragon Spell granting 2, 3 if someone has a bad character and doesn't have T1 BAB progression on his char without relying on Fervor. I do not think 2 mins of +0-2 attacks to the hitting guys in the party is worth speccing this deep to Enchantment as a Cleric. Value of BIO-ing the buff also went down since you get less uptime to attacks upon Bio (not that we were using Bios or Asmo Rods to recast it in the first place, but since you brought it up).
Sidenote: Fervor in previous patch already granted 2 attacks to everyone in the party unlike what Docs and the "attacks explained" -thread stated, to others as well not just the Caster.
On PDK: I am happy to hear PDK grants the pure fighter BAB attack progression at 4; this is salvaging news for the rog/rdd/assas/SDs out there.
To clarify, I assume the current stacking is as stands: Group A: Heroism Divine Power Fervor Tenser
Group B: CoT SD Harper PDK
Group C: Haste, Mass Haste
Stacking: A+B+C all stack together, but none stack with any others from their own groups. Correct? I must admit I thought PDK, Heroism, Harper were all in Group A based on how it was explained in the update post, so faulty logic on my part. Maybe this clarifies, if not, oh well - feel free to ignore it as ramblings of an idiot.
|
|
|
Post by Methes on Dec 7, 2020 21:53:49 GMT
As far as I understand, there are three bonus attacks groups now, but slightly different than what you've written. Group A - bonus attacks provided from simulating BAB of a fighter (aka Heroism effect) if you have BAB < 16 - stacking with other groups but obviously not with each other: Improved Heroism Divine Power Fervor Tenser
Group B - regular bonus attacks - stacking with other groups but not with each other: CoT SD Harper PDK Divine Power Fervor Tenser
Group C - stacking with each other and other groups: Haste Mass Haste
In theory, a lvl 40 wiz with BAB 10 should get 2 basic + 2 Heroism (group A) + 2 Tensers (bonus) + 1 Haste + 3 Mass Haste = 8 bonus attacks.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Dec 7, 2020 22:07:22 GMT
Question, why isn't Improved Heroism +1 at CL45 included in Group B? This is the attack why I thought Bards shouldn't splash Harper. highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25349/update-2017-12-13Also, that goes back to original point of Fervor sucking for CoT + SD, and Fervor almost never being worth as opposed to bringing a PDK. This also devalues Harper Scout, if you're gonna bring that PDK that is, regardless of any theoretical duration buff on Tymora's Smile.
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Dec 7, 2020 22:20:06 GMT
I assumed either base 8 dex or cha with a +16 stat bonus between demix2 and +12 gear (for a total of +7). 26 base charisma for smiter (+20 stat for a modifier of +18) A Dexter would have like base dex 44 for a +27 modifier. It could be slightly (1-4) higher indeed.
So in my head it was about 7 round for a neither smiter/dexter 12 for smiter without dex 17 for Dexter without charisma.
I think harper should be good regardless of charisma or dexterity - i.e. a good fixed "good" (usable, as in, "feels good") duration. My point about bio was - being "exploitable" by use of consumable makes for a terrible experience when you aren't "rich" enough.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 22:26:53 GMT
As far as I understand, there are three bonus attacks groups now, but slightly different than what you've written. Group A - bonus attacks provided from simulating BAB of a fighter (aka Heroism effect) if you have BAB < 16 - stacking with other groups but obviously not with each other: Improved Heroism Divine Power Fervor Tenser Group B - regular bonus attacks - stacking with other groups but not with each other: CoT SD Harper PDK Divine Power Fervor Tenser Group C - stacking with each other and other groups: Haste Mass Haste In theory, a lvl 40 wiz with BAB 10 should get 2 basic + 2 Heroism (group A) + 2 Tensers (bonus) + 1 Haste + 3 Mass Haste = 8 bonus attacks. Incorrect. First of all, you have Fervor, DP and Tenser's in two different groups. Remove them from group B. See highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/26304/attack-stacking-works-changed Or better, forget your groups. Saying group B stacks with other groups except A, when there are only three groups, isn't terribly helpful. If there are questions about stacking, ask them in the linked thread above. Funky
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Dec 7, 2020 22:28:03 GMT
Yeap, tested it: CoTs and SDs only receive +1 from Fervor.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 22:30:15 GMT
Question, why isn't Improved Heroism +1 at CL45 included in Group B? This is the attack why I thought Bards shouldn't splash Harper. highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25349/update-2017-12-13Also, that goes back to original point of Fervor sucking for CoT + SD, and Fervor almost never being worth as opposed to bringing a PDK. This also devalues Harper Scout, if you're gonna bring that PDK that is, regardless of any theoretical duration buff on Tymora's Smile. I can't speak to why Methes grouped things like he did, but they are unrelated to the actual situation on the server. Reference the stacking thread, and ask questions there. Funky
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 22:35:03 GMT
Yeap, tested it: CoTs and SDs only receive +1 from Fervor. Incorrect, unless you are referring to Fervor clvl < 55, which I suppose is possible. If you mean they only get one above the one they get when they have their special active, ok, but what's actually happening is that the Fervor is stripping their effect and adding a 2 attack bonus (again, assuming your Fervor caster > 55). Funky
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Dec 7, 2020 22:41:06 GMT
I am testing on a 59 cleric yes. And yes, they are only getting +1 attack beyond their normal activation. And that means Fervor synergy with these classes is bad. 2 minutes of +1 apr is not good, for reasons I extrapolated on above.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Dec 7, 2020 22:48:34 GMT
And Harper bard also only gets +1 attack from Tymora's, confirmed on live. Heroism gets him to 6 attacks per round, using Harper on top gets him to 7. I don't understand, I made all these points in my original post and they weren't false upon testing. What did I misunderstand?
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 7, 2020 23:16:23 GMT
Gonna cut n paste for brevity- will try to keep you in context. Would really help if you learn to use quotes. However it's a bit odd to throw around groupthink like this . . . At no point did I suggest you were engaged in groupthink. I was suggesting that Prep was agreeing with you because he liked your ocnclusion despite it resting on incorrect facts. since we are playing different playstyles, group setups and don't even partake in the same discords or runs and tend to disagree more often than not on a lot of things in the game, and I am here talking in favour of things I dislike, but based on faulty info (on stacking part). Now, to explain myself again after looking up things: Imp/Heroism IS in the DP group. Read my post explaining. It's not spelled out in update notes because it would be longer than the update notes. Hence the separate post, mad for the purpose of helping people understand the system. If they read it. They most ceretainly are: SPELL_TENSERS_TRANSFORMATION HGSPELL_HEROISM HGSPELL_IMPROVED_HEROISM SPELL_DIVINE_POWER (and the SPELL_STORM_OF_VENGEANCE that sometimes applies it) HGSPELL_PARAGON_DIVINE_FERVORWe'll call these the DP Spells, for future reference. Thanks, this is the kind of input I'm looking for. C.f.: Since I mentioned Fervor, the duration is too low now. It's worse than masshaste spamming effectively, yet costing a Paragon; the duration is so low that it is not relevant for normal map clear, so it is almost exclusively a boss tool that doesn't even help your caster tanks and slingers, nor stack with PDK/Harpers, and only half-way helping CoTs and SDs. See esp 'not relevant for normal map clear'. Funky
|
|