Impact on Forgotten Realms vs Dragonlance

[archmage]

How does the fact that Raistlin/Fistandantilus vs Elminster's alignments are so different impact the overall feel of their respective realms? I will post my thoughts in a few, just wanted to hear what people have to say on the topic first.

[Kazatel]

After a little thought I'd say that it gives both realms a certain feel. The greatest mage in Dragonlance was/is Raistlin/Fist., who was/is evil, kind of. The impacts of his actions give those realms a darker feel. It gives rise to the belief that bad is stronger than good. There really is a sense of futilility in the realm of Dragonlance.
Elminster on the other hand is the puppet of a good god. His actions give a good feeling to Forgotten Realms. I'd say that it gives hope to see good have such a powerful force.
It's interesting to think about the two wizards. They really are two sides of the same coin.

<------?when did i go from beginner to veteran?

[tempus]

I think both mages can be identified with our own feelings.

Raistlin for instance was evil however he is more liked than any good character in that series. The reason for this is that anyone reading can identify with his feelings at some point..We all have inner monsters and we crave goodness /salvation just as he did..We want to see goodness in everything even if its evil,just as he showed in the last book. It makes us question ourselves and our personal motives in some way.

Eleminster, on the other hand can be identified within ourselves as a person we would like ourselves to mirror. Doing good in the name of his faith and for the betterment of others. I don't know to many people who haven't dreamed of doing exactly that in our real lives.

Thus we can relate to or even live out those experiences we most want to see in ourselves from different perspectives while reading these books.

Amicus

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

I'd have to say they're very different character TYPES...From my reading, they're really incomparable because Raistlin/Fist 'felt' like a PC...a PC with a wacky personal plotline, but a PC.

Elminster is a Plot NPC.

This is why I don't think they're really comparible directly as having the same kinds of influence over their respective realms. Elminster plays the role of a (relatively) benign custodian - while Raistlin is much more of a direct actor. In addition, Elminster doesn't have anything to prove, really. He generally sets up things so that *other* characters can develop and act.

Raistlin does have something to prove - a lot of them, in fact. Most of his actions in the world are some kind of attempt to prove himself - as independant, as powerful, as respect-worthy, even as an equal ot a goddess...and in the end, perhaps he proves himself worthy of redemption. In essence, Raistlin as a character is a story akin to Darth Vader. In trying to achieve greatness and overcome his past, Raistlin falls...and falls...but in the end, he turns against evil for the benefit of another...first by sacrificing himself to keep Her out of the portal, and then again by allowing himself to be used in the Test for Caramon's son...

Elminster, though, even when reading the various stories that *reveal* his past - he's never trying to overcome it so to speak, those stories are more to provide background and help explain why this character is and does various things in the way that he is and does them. The theme is more exposition, inviting you to grow with the character and see if you can see yourself in him, or see how you'd react in the same situations.

Also, I have to point out that Elminster *serves* the gods, while Raistlin sought to replace them.

So, in the end, I have to say that it isn't their *alignment* that is the difference - the difference is their function in the stories and in their realms. Raistlin is a PC, and Elminster is the DM's module hook.

I don't think the difference in the feel of their respective realms is influenced by their alignments very much...there are too many other, better reasons for the difference in feel IMO.

[Dannecrot]

Well, I already showed that I don't know who Elminster is, and that my knowledge is basically non-existent, but after all, this thread was inspired by that. So here goes:

I think that the fact that Raistlin is evil has a great impact on the books, but not on the realm. If you look at Raistlin, he's not an all-powerful all-knowing mentor who leads us through the story and gives us a feeling that he knows how everything is going to turn out at the end, (examples: Belgarath, Odin - in the Renshai series, Yoda, Dumbledore, Gandalf. to name a few) but instead just another character. He may seem like the best/coolest character but that's just because of the whole "I shall strive to become the best even though I'm so hated/ridiculed" thing, and then he succeeds! Raistlin may reach grand heights and may be the main character in a lot of the books but in no way, in my opinion, does he change the feeling of the whole realm.

That being said, it obviously has a great impact on the story/books, in the DL books frankly there isn't anyone you can relate to or that you'd like as a friend. These may seem like stupid things to "need" in a book, and actually you don't really "need" them, but the fact that there are no characters like this will automatically give the book a darker feel. It's possible that Raistlin is who he is because of that feel and not the other way around.


You know, the mage doesn't always have to be the center of the world... ;D

[khaine]

Has anyone read villains by necessity by eve forward? This is a great book, but more specifically it shows the how just because some one is "evil" does not mean they are evil. Yes, thats right. You really have to read the book, but basically the (evil) heroes) still share the common bonds hared by good people, and are really very similar people, just they took a different route.

[dragonlance007]

Well I just had to respond to this one. They dont call me DL for nothing.

I cant say that I agree with Raistlin/Fist giving DL an overall dark feeling as an entire Realm. I do, however, agree with many of the responses that people of left about Raistlin/Fist.

I guess what I would agree with most is pretty much what Delf said, the 2 (Raist/Fist and Elmin) are really not comparable. I have found this to be true with many many things when you try to comepare FR and DL.

There are pages and pages of this kind of discussion on my Black Robed Raistlin Majere character I posted on the NWN Vault ( over 6,300 downloads and 2 votes away from the Hall of Fame )

Click here if you are interested in it, or just want to read to posts.

nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Characters.Detail&id=637

A lot of the discussion there ended up with me saying, this is my representation of Raistlin Majere but fit into a FR game with NWN limitations.

Some things in my opinion dont transfer well or even compare well. Yes they were both very power mages from very popular and simular fantasy Sagas but I still have a hard time finding them comparable.

About their aliegnments being different and how that has affected their respective realms? Well, Raistlin/Fist were/are evil. But Raistlin wasnt always that way, I remember reading Chronicles and loving the Red Robed Raistlin, even when he had some dark thoughts I could understand why he was having them and kind of relate in my own way.

I also remember my suprise and devestation when Raistlin pasted his test and what he did then, and then when he became one of the evil Black robed mages. But when that happened it didnt make me think of the DL Realm as a darker place, but it made me think of Raistlin becomeing much darker, and more powerful, and also more unpredictable, and therefore more INTERESTING!! Raistlin in the legends stands out as the most powerful Black Robe on Krynn but that didnt make Kyrnn seem darker to me.

The only time Krynn seemed darker to me was in the War of Souls trilogy and that was way after Raistlin and really didnt have much to do with him. I could get into it more but I dont want to spoil anything for anyone who may not have read those books, and they are great so please do if you have not.

Although I know much about DragonLance, unfortunately my knowledge of Elminster is slim to none. I have just recently started reading FR books, I have read 10 books so far, Dark Elf Tril, Ice Wind Dale Tril, Legacy of the Drow Series and Paths of Darkness series. None of which mention Elminster at all lol.

Can anyone tell me the good books to read about him please?

Thanks

~DL_007

[Kazatel]

Look for books written by Ed Greenwood. Almost all his books will have Elminster in there somewhere.

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

The Time of Troubles series, or the trilogy involving Shandril Shessair have Elminster in his normal role...some later books like 'Elminster in Hell', or 'Elminster's Daugher' are about him as the main character, which isn't his normal role in the realms, so reading them first would give you a different perspective on the discussion.

[dragonlance007]

I just bought "The Making of a Mage" and "Elminster in Myth Drannar". Barnes and Noble did not have the 3rd book in the series "The temptation of Elminster" but I plan to get it. Also it had listed after that triligy to read "Elminster in Hell" so I picked that up as well.

Making of a Mage seems to be the beginings of Elminsters life and my guess is, the other 2 books in the triligy just continue with his life... I should read those first right? or read the Time of Troubles series or the one involving Shandril Shessair??

Thanks. If you all have any questions about DragonLance, I am your man, but I just recently got involved with FR (mainly just Drizzt novels as of yet). I am looking forward to reading of this Elminster, but I dont want to go about it the wrong way. Any advice on him is most appreciated.

~DL_007

[archmage]

Read the Time of Troubles, the Icewind Dale Trilogy, and the Dark Elf Trilogy. Oh and The Cleric Quintet Series. All fine FR books.

[dragonlance007]

archmage said:

Read the Time of Troubles, the Icewind Dale Trilogy, and the Dark Elf Trilogy. Oh and The Cleric Quintet Series. All fine FR books.

Cool, thanks arch. I have read The Dark Elf, Ice Wind Dale, Legacy of the Drow, and Paths of Darkness series. All have been fantastic. Going to read time of troubles next then Cleric Quintet.

I have the Hunters Blade trilogy on hardback... should I not read that until after Cleric Quintet... I am assuming it starts after the Paths of Darkness series.

~DL_007

[dragonlance007]

archmage said:

Read the Time of Troubles, the Icewind Dale Trilogy, and the Dark Elf Trilogy. Oh and The Cleric Quintet Series. All fine FR books.

Been looking for the Time of Troubles series. Didnt see it on the Forgotten Realms novel guild webpage and am having a hard time locating it on Amazon or barnesandnoble.com.

Can you tell me what the individual book names are and who the auther is?

Thanks,

~DL

[ocath]

I believe the titles are:
Tantras (Book 2)
Shadowdale (Book 1)
Waterdeep (Book 3)

They look like they might have been re-released as the avatar trilogy. Check www.bookfinder.com It is a great resource for hard to find books.

[dragonlance007]

ocath said:

I believe the titles are:
Tantras (Book 2)
Shadowdale (Book 1)
Waterdeep (Book 3)

They look like they might have been re-released as the avatar trilogy. Check www.bookfinder.com It is a great resource for hard to find books.

aahhhh that makes much more sense now. Thank you. Seen those books all over but didnt know that the time of toubles series is now the avatar series.

Thanks again

~DL