Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Sept 25, 2006 18:22:27 GMT
Alright, I may touch off a firestorm here, so before I do...keep in mind, that the HG Pendulum swings freely, and things have always changed, and always will.
The subject today is class balance between caster classes...Sorc, Wiz, Clerics, and Druids.
Once upon a time, Druids were the joke of HG. There weren't any. You couldn't find a high level druid for anything other than a Dachy run, and even then it was people playing alternates they'd made for just that purpose. And only two people I know of had them.
We routinely sold Dachy Druid gear to the weapon shop vendor, because you couldn't even GIVE them away. I know, I tried.
Then LLs came out, and still druids didn't exist. Meleers were the kings of HG, wizzies/sorc and clerics in high level areas were rare, but not unheard of. Brother Schlumpy, Myself, and Deva Jadon commonly, or some other alternates of those with many characters.
Then Wizzy/Sorc spells were uncapped, spell pen extended, and scaled for LLs. Our super epics remained relatively unchanged, but previously only we'd had them, and they were designed for a level 40 only game where Ssithrak was the top of the food chain.
Suddenly, the server was awash in kitty heads and squids. EVERYBODY had to play a caster. They were the most powerful either in fact, or in the eyes of the community, whatever - but the *effect* was that suddenly desert runs were 5 mages and a tank or rogue being dragged in the wake of a truly silly amount of meteor swarms.
Now, Druid and Cleric spells have been upgraded for LL areas, uncapped, and also they have *new* super epic spells designed specifically for a LL oriented HG.
And now, the server is awash in DRUIDS. They are absolutely everywhere. Almost everyone in the vet category has one. New players remake when they see druids in action. They are viewed as most powerful, most useful, top caster class.
Before going on, let me be clear. I am NOT saying that all non-druids need a big power boost. I am NOT saying that druids need to be nerfed into the stone age. I *am* saying that their balance may need to be looked at and possibly adjusted. I'll leave *how* up to the DMstaff.
As a wizzy, its kinda odd to see groups clammoring for a druid as the first choice offensive caster, or a group necessity. And since this post is about class balance, lets take a look at WHY druids have gone from never played to dominating the server.
1) Exotic damage types. As we all know, monsters (and players) are weakest against exotic damage types. There are four. Negative energy, positive energy, divine damage, and magic damage. I can't think of a single thing that is immune to all forms of exotic damage, and most things are well effected by three types if not all four.
DRUIDS ALONE can cast all four exotic damages. Wizzies and well made sorcerers can cast neg/magic/divine. Clerics can cast Divine/Neg/Pos. Thus, they have the exotic damage of choice for any monster they face, anywhere, any time, and other casters don't.
Druids get EQ, radius positive damage, SR ignoring but breaks loot. They get Bombard, at range radius divine that *doesn't* break loot - like meteors but from a safe distance. Finger of Death is great single target negative, *and* a death effect to boot, and it can be empowered for over 200 damage routinely. Quillfire is single targe magic damage that is unresistable. Good damage too.
So druids can choose surgical vs massing, radius vs range, and still have exotic types that don't break loot.
Clerics get EQ, *tons* of divine damage single targe or radius, and cause crits/serious/moderate on demand. And they get divine power/favor to up their touch attacks. NO magic damage, ever.
Wizards get Neg Burst, Neg Ray, Vamp Touch, FoD for neg attacks. Mostly single target, but Neg Burst is useful in some places though the damage is lower than many other spells, its more consistent also.
Meteor swarm for divine. We all know how useful that spells is - big radius, non loot break.
Magic damage, though, is much more a mixed bag. We get more OF it, but with wacky applications. IGM, well, we all know how well that works on bosses or single targets...and how badly on things with kickback. Magic Missle, discussed below, sucks. Horrid Wilting - great in most cases, but since its necromancy, true undead or shadow shields squash it. Plus the damage (though exotic) is often less than non-exotic damage of spells of lower level.
And then there's the much forgotten Sunburst. Technically, its magic damage. However, its completely useless. Damage vs non-undead is pathetic, and it has a reflex save - making wilting better every time vs non undead/shadow shielded critters. And vs undead, most "true" undead on the server are either a) creatures with evasion, thus Sunburst is useless, or b) creatures not-weak vs magic. Result? Maximized firebrand is better than Sunburst every single time.
And wizards/sorcerers get no positive.
Of course, wizzies/sorcerers alone get all the elemental damage types. However, elemental damage isn't nearly as univerally useable as exotic types. There are things around functionally immune to all elemental, and the rest of the time you need to tailor what you use to what is around you - which is totally proper and as it should be. But in this case we're talking about the universal application of exotic damages, which are superior to elemental damage types.
Thus - Druids, with solid spells that use all four exotic types have superior damage based offense.
2) Unresistable damage. As we all know, Spell Resistance gets pretty high at the top. Thus, spells that avoid SR are really very HUGE.
DRUIDS ALONE get *two* spells that avoid SR. And both are exotic damage types. Thus, double usefulness. Quillfire and Earthquake are damned useful just about anyplace from what I've seen. In addition, they are *different* exotic damage types, magic and positive. Thus, triple usefulness as the spells are not duplicitive in effect. And since they don't overlap spell levels, you can use both of them at the same time. Quadruple usefulness.
Clerics get EQ, which is great, and can cast more of them than druids if they give up implosions, which is their other signature spell. A trade off, but trade offs are good because they force choice and make things harder.
Wizards get Magic Missle. Which, frankly, sucks. While unresistable magic damage is great, unfortunately MM is divided five ways, which on average cuts about *half* of it away on any monster's even basic 5/- damage reduction. It has next to no application, even on monsters with a specific lack of immunity vs magic damage, it just multiplies the kickback five times. Even empowered or maximized, its less useful than spells of the levels they'd replace in every situation I can think of.
Thus, for SR-disregarding spells, Druids are king.
3) Super epics. Druids and clerics get super epics which are designed for LL areas. Wiz/sorc super epics were designed in a level 40 world, and have disads that the new ones don't seem to.
Now, all wizzy/sorc super epics are *highly* situational. And there's nothing *wrong* with situational. In fact, it makes you think, which is a good thing. We're talking balance between the epic spells though.
-DoM at the wrong time wipes parties, and is only useful when there are enemy casters around. But used correctly, does well in those few situations.
-Balor kicks @$$, but can't be summoned underwater, has limited application in the sand, and the primary kickback being fire...has limited application where things are immune to fire. And in certain other areas, it'd die instantly from kickback.
-Missle Barrage is great on bosses with reachable SR, but stinks on things with higher SR, or multiple monsters, or single targes with kickback.
-Starfire is pretty damned nice anyplace, for its one use. Kickback can be an issue, but its almost always worth it.
-Transmutation wall - great in a lot of situations at LLs. In tunnels or other closed in areas, not so much. Again, limited usefulness.
-Bigby's swarm. Well, since I've never actually ever SEEN anyone use this ever. Not that in demand.
-Contingency is rare - mostly because we cast NO divination spells that need DC attached. And of course, it can help you auto if you die lots with it.
-Mass Mords - again, never seen ANYONE use it. And if you mords your own party, you wouldn't be thanked for it. And I can't think of anyplace I'd rather use that over my own mords. Completely useless.
And what do druids get that makes them SO powerful?
- SHUNT. OK, this spell is huge. Out of the areas this would be used in, from Lloth run on up, EVERY SINGLE ONE except one encounters elemental damage in some degree. This spell is universally useful to protect from weapon damage, enemy spells, kickback, traps, breath weapon, radius scream damage...you name it. Even in the lloth run, this will help your mortal fighters deal with incoming melee damage.
And in the hardest of the LL areas, this spell is a must have. Nothing arcane casters have is even close to this useful, because this doesn't just aid the caster, but the entire party.
This is clearly the best Super Epic in the game. Nothing else comes close, with the possible exception of the clerical anti-exotic spell.
- Petrification. OK - this spell is even better than the mass bigby that no one ever uses. Everything's stone, no muss, no fuss - paralyze a room and destroy with spells from absolute safety, no save, no immunity.
- SR-Dropping spell. I don't know the name, but Druids have no mords? No problem. This spell drops SR better than Mords, and longer I think. Not that druids really *need* SR dropped, but this spell erases monster SR without risk to PCs that AE-Mords does have.
I'll stop at those three. I don't know everything about druids, but I do know how useful those spells are when I see them used!
Clerics get other useful spells, but not nearly as rough as those seem to be.
- Party weapon buff - +16 is everybody's friend, but only if your party is actually using weapons. Caster heavy parties don't need it.
- Party AC buff - great for anybody in plate, but again only if your party is using plate armor. Great for *yourself* if a tank cleric though, but caster heavy parties don't need it.
- Visage of Doom. Beats Balor hands down in a pitfight, and divine kickback has more applications than fire - but for some reason I've not seen them around in a very very long time. New clerics aren't taking them as far as I can tell.
- Party exotic-damage buff- Not nearly as hot as shunt, but plenty of places where this helps. Weapon damage, enemy spell damage, enemy script-spell like damage, *some* kickback, and more boss-breath than shunt. A distand second.
- Miracle. VERY hot spell. Unresistable Stun to all enemies *and* 1k free hps? Partywide? Huge. If I had the feats for tank cleric, I'd take this in addition to the book for +13gmw. Next sexiest, and multi application too.
4) Defenses. Probably the only "problem" with druids is their defense. They do not have the conceal that mages do. Of course, neither do clerics. They do not have the GS that mages and clerics do. But they can use scrolls. They also don't get GMW of DF, which at times is a *blessing*.
They also have the ability to get large amounts of %physical immunity that a plate class can get with 1 feat, OR they can go the dexer route and use Premonition like a mage can and gain monk AC for their wisdom score, which is high as a wis-based caster. So their defense is really no weaker than clerics or plate warriors, and can be near dexer levels if their wis is high.
Also, Mages have taken a *big* hit these days in the defense category. I believe it was this last update that made +ab bypass reduction the way that +enhance does. I know only that I've been taking a whole lot more damage per hit lately, despite having the same gear, than I did before the bio-update. Premonition isn't nearly as good as it used to be from my experience. To the tune of +20pts per hit or thereabouts, most noticably from archers and monks. A couple months ago I could walk into the monks in the ssithrak temple and their archer support and take basically no damage. Now, I get routinely slaughtered by them. Same gear. Only thing off is 5% conceal from then, and that doesn't effect the fact I take more damage now than I did then.
Plus, monster attacks are scaled for 90% conceal as a possibility - 50bazillion attacks still land some and we can't absorb the damage that a plate armor person can.
So, Druids can take the plate class option and soak damage, but they won't be any different than clerics or str-melee are now. Certainly no weaker. And mages remain based on conceal more than anything else, because we've got no other defense.
Conclusion:
From the analysis above, it looks like druids are clearly the most powerful spell casters on the server. I personally think they're out of balance because they're supreme offensively, and have supreme party defense, with little detriment/weakness.
Of course, I said it before and I'll say it again. The pendulum swings freely. Once Druids were a joke. Once Sorcerers were top pick. Then Wizzies enjoyed the limelight. Clerics have always had their place, though its changed with the loss of implosion DC and the subsequent gaining of EQ as it is. Now Druids are king. And *everyone* wants to be one, which is a good sign of their dominance.
I'm *not* saying druids need to be weakened. I'm *not* saying other casters need to be stronger. Or that epics *need* to be revisited again. Or that monsters need to be changed. Or gear needs editing. Or that new zones with different themes aren't on the way. ALL of these have been fluid, and all play into balance.
The questions are these - are things now balanced? Is the situation on the ground coming out the way the DMs envisioned it? Is there tweaking to be done to make things more level between the caster classes?
I hope my perspective and commentary can be useful.
The subject today is class balance between caster classes...Sorc, Wiz, Clerics, and Druids.
Once upon a time, Druids were the joke of HG. There weren't any. You couldn't find a high level druid for anything other than a Dachy run, and even then it was people playing alternates they'd made for just that purpose. And only two people I know of had them.
We routinely sold Dachy Druid gear to the weapon shop vendor, because you couldn't even GIVE them away. I know, I tried.
Then LLs came out, and still druids didn't exist. Meleers were the kings of HG, wizzies/sorc and clerics in high level areas were rare, but not unheard of. Brother Schlumpy, Myself, and Deva Jadon commonly, or some other alternates of those with many characters.
Then Wizzy/Sorc spells were uncapped, spell pen extended, and scaled for LLs. Our super epics remained relatively unchanged, but previously only we'd had them, and they were designed for a level 40 only game where Ssithrak was the top of the food chain.
Suddenly, the server was awash in kitty heads and squids. EVERYBODY had to play a caster. They were the most powerful either in fact, or in the eyes of the community, whatever - but the *effect* was that suddenly desert runs were 5 mages and a tank or rogue being dragged in the wake of a truly silly amount of meteor swarms.
Now, Druid and Cleric spells have been upgraded for LL areas, uncapped, and also they have *new* super epic spells designed specifically for a LL oriented HG.
And now, the server is awash in DRUIDS. They are absolutely everywhere. Almost everyone in the vet category has one. New players remake when they see druids in action. They are viewed as most powerful, most useful, top caster class.
Before going on, let me be clear. I am NOT saying that all non-druids need a big power boost. I am NOT saying that druids need to be nerfed into the stone age. I *am* saying that their balance may need to be looked at and possibly adjusted. I'll leave *how* up to the DMstaff.
As a wizzy, its kinda odd to see groups clammoring for a druid as the first choice offensive caster, or a group necessity. And since this post is about class balance, lets take a look at WHY druids have gone from never played to dominating the server.
1) Exotic damage types. As we all know, monsters (and players) are weakest against exotic damage types. There are four. Negative energy, positive energy, divine damage, and magic damage. I can't think of a single thing that is immune to all forms of exotic damage, and most things are well effected by three types if not all four.
DRUIDS ALONE can cast all four exotic damages. Wizzies and well made sorcerers can cast neg/magic/divine. Clerics can cast Divine/Neg/Pos. Thus, they have the exotic damage of choice for any monster they face, anywhere, any time, and other casters don't.
Druids get EQ, radius positive damage, SR ignoring but breaks loot. They get Bombard, at range radius divine that *doesn't* break loot - like meteors but from a safe distance. Finger of Death is great single target negative, *and* a death effect to boot, and it can be empowered for over 200 damage routinely. Quillfire is single targe magic damage that is unresistable. Good damage too.
So druids can choose surgical vs massing, radius vs range, and still have exotic types that don't break loot.
Clerics get EQ, *tons* of divine damage single targe or radius, and cause crits/serious/moderate on demand. And they get divine power/favor to up their touch attacks. NO magic damage, ever.
Wizards get Neg Burst, Neg Ray, Vamp Touch, FoD for neg attacks. Mostly single target, but Neg Burst is useful in some places though the damage is lower than many other spells, its more consistent also.
Meteor swarm for divine. We all know how useful that spells is - big radius, non loot break.
Magic damage, though, is much more a mixed bag. We get more OF it, but with wacky applications. IGM, well, we all know how well that works on bosses or single targets...and how badly on things with kickback. Magic Missle, discussed below, sucks. Horrid Wilting - great in most cases, but since its necromancy, true undead or shadow shields squash it. Plus the damage (though exotic) is often less than non-exotic damage of spells of lower level.
And then there's the much forgotten Sunburst. Technically, its magic damage. However, its completely useless. Damage vs non-undead is pathetic, and it has a reflex save - making wilting better every time vs non undead/shadow shielded critters. And vs undead, most "true" undead on the server are either a) creatures with evasion, thus Sunburst is useless, or b) creatures not-weak vs magic. Result? Maximized firebrand is better than Sunburst every single time.
And wizards/sorcerers get no positive.
Of course, wizzies/sorcerers alone get all the elemental damage types. However, elemental damage isn't nearly as univerally useable as exotic types. There are things around functionally immune to all elemental, and the rest of the time you need to tailor what you use to what is around you - which is totally proper and as it should be. But in this case we're talking about the universal application of exotic damages, which are superior to elemental damage types.
Thus - Druids, with solid spells that use all four exotic types have superior damage based offense.
2) Unresistable damage. As we all know, Spell Resistance gets pretty high at the top. Thus, spells that avoid SR are really very HUGE.
DRUIDS ALONE get *two* spells that avoid SR. And both are exotic damage types. Thus, double usefulness. Quillfire and Earthquake are damned useful just about anyplace from what I've seen. In addition, they are *different* exotic damage types, magic and positive. Thus, triple usefulness as the spells are not duplicitive in effect. And since they don't overlap spell levels, you can use both of them at the same time. Quadruple usefulness.
Clerics get EQ, which is great, and can cast more of them than druids if they give up implosions, which is their other signature spell. A trade off, but trade offs are good because they force choice and make things harder.
Wizards get Magic Missle. Which, frankly, sucks. While unresistable magic damage is great, unfortunately MM is divided five ways, which on average cuts about *half* of it away on any monster's even basic 5/- damage reduction. It has next to no application, even on monsters with a specific lack of immunity vs magic damage, it just multiplies the kickback five times. Even empowered or maximized, its less useful than spells of the levels they'd replace in every situation I can think of.
Thus, for SR-disregarding spells, Druids are king.
3) Super epics. Druids and clerics get super epics which are designed for LL areas. Wiz/sorc super epics were designed in a level 40 world, and have disads that the new ones don't seem to.
Now, all wizzy/sorc super epics are *highly* situational. And there's nothing *wrong* with situational. In fact, it makes you think, which is a good thing. We're talking balance between the epic spells though.
-DoM at the wrong time wipes parties, and is only useful when there are enemy casters around. But used correctly, does well in those few situations.
-Balor kicks @$$, but can't be summoned underwater, has limited application in the sand, and the primary kickback being fire...has limited application where things are immune to fire. And in certain other areas, it'd die instantly from kickback.
-Missle Barrage is great on bosses with reachable SR, but stinks on things with higher SR, or multiple monsters, or single targes with kickback.
-Starfire is pretty damned nice anyplace, for its one use. Kickback can be an issue, but its almost always worth it.
-Transmutation wall - great in a lot of situations at LLs. In tunnels or other closed in areas, not so much. Again, limited usefulness.
-Bigby's swarm. Well, since I've never actually ever SEEN anyone use this ever. Not that in demand.
-Contingency is rare - mostly because we cast NO divination spells that need DC attached. And of course, it can help you auto if you die lots with it.
-Mass Mords - again, never seen ANYONE use it. And if you mords your own party, you wouldn't be thanked for it. And I can't think of anyplace I'd rather use that over my own mords. Completely useless.
And what do druids get that makes them SO powerful?
- SHUNT. OK, this spell is huge. Out of the areas this would be used in, from Lloth run on up, EVERY SINGLE ONE except one encounters elemental damage in some degree. This spell is universally useful to protect from weapon damage, enemy spells, kickback, traps, breath weapon, radius scream damage...you name it. Even in the lloth run, this will help your mortal fighters deal with incoming melee damage.
And in the hardest of the LL areas, this spell is a must have. Nothing arcane casters have is even close to this useful, because this doesn't just aid the caster, but the entire party.
This is clearly the best Super Epic in the game. Nothing else comes close, with the possible exception of the clerical anti-exotic spell.
- Petrification. OK - this spell is even better than the mass bigby that no one ever uses. Everything's stone, no muss, no fuss - paralyze a room and destroy with spells from absolute safety, no save, no immunity.
- SR-Dropping spell. I don't know the name, but Druids have no mords? No problem. This spell drops SR better than Mords, and longer I think. Not that druids really *need* SR dropped, but this spell erases monster SR without risk to PCs that AE-Mords does have.
I'll stop at those three. I don't know everything about druids, but I do know how useful those spells are when I see them used!
Clerics get other useful spells, but not nearly as rough as those seem to be.
- Party weapon buff - +16 is everybody's friend, but only if your party is actually using weapons. Caster heavy parties don't need it.
- Party AC buff - great for anybody in plate, but again only if your party is using plate armor. Great for *yourself* if a tank cleric though, but caster heavy parties don't need it.
- Visage of Doom. Beats Balor hands down in a pitfight, and divine kickback has more applications than fire - but for some reason I've not seen them around in a very very long time. New clerics aren't taking them as far as I can tell.
- Party exotic-damage buff- Not nearly as hot as shunt, but plenty of places where this helps. Weapon damage, enemy spell damage, enemy script-spell like damage, *some* kickback, and more boss-breath than shunt. A distand second.
- Miracle. VERY hot spell. Unresistable Stun to all enemies *and* 1k free hps? Partywide? Huge. If I had the feats for tank cleric, I'd take this in addition to the book for +13gmw. Next sexiest, and multi application too.
4) Defenses. Probably the only "problem" with druids is their defense. They do not have the conceal that mages do. Of course, neither do clerics. They do not have the GS that mages and clerics do. But they can use scrolls. They also don't get GMW of DF, which at times is a *blessing*.
They also have the ability to get large amounts of %physical immunity that a plate class can get with 1 feat, OR they can go the dexer route and use Premonition like a mage can and gain monk AC for their wisdom score, which is high as a wis-based caster. So their defense is really no weaker than clerics or plate warriors, and can be near dexer levels if their wis is high.
Also, Mages have taken a *big* hit these days in the defense category. I believe it was this last update that made +ab bypass reduction the way that +enhance does. I know only that I've been taking a whole lot more damage per hit lately, despite having the same gear, than I did before the bio-update. Premonition isn't nearly as good as it used to be from my experience. To the tune of +20pts per hit or thereabouts, most noticably from archers and monks. A couple months ago I could walk into the monks in the ssithrak temple and their archer support and take basically no damage. Now, I get routinely slaughtered by them. Same gear. Only thing off is 5% conceal from then, and that doesn't effect the fact I take more damage now than I did then.
Plus, monster attacks are scaled for 90% conceal as a possibility - 50bazillion attacks still land some and we can't absorb the damage that a plate armor person can.
So, Druids can take the plate class option and soak damage, but they won't be any different than clerics or str-melee are now. Certainly no weaker. And mages remain based on conceal more than anything else, because we've got no other defense.
Conclusion:
From the analysis above, it looks like druids are clearly the most powerful spell casters on the server. I personally think they're out of balance because they're supreme offensively, and have supreme party defense, with little detriment/weakness.
Of course, I said it before and I'll say it again. The pendulum swings freely. Once Druids were a joke. Once Sorcerers were top pick. Then Wizzies enjoyed the limelight. Clerics have always had their place, though its changed with the loss of implosion DC and the subsequent gaining of EQ as it is. Now Druids are king. And *everyone* wants to be one, which is a good sign of their dominance.
I'm *not* saying druids need to be weakened. I'm *not* saying other casters need to be stronger. Or that epics *need* to be revisited again. Or that monsters need to be changed. Or gear needs editing. Or that new zones with different themes aren't on the way. ALL of these have been fluid, and all play into balance.
The questions are these - are things now balanced? Is the situation on the ground coming out the way the DMs envisioned it? Is there tweaking to be done to make things more level between the caster classes?
I hope my perspective and commentary can be useful.
but it is still petty useful consider how ssith and desert is full of archer..
