AA Death arrow

[Becb]

Would it be possible for there to be a SIMTools command that could toggle the wail arrow and death arrow so that you can still use the regular death arrows after it would normally change to the wail arrow.

It could only be used when the wail timer is at zero so someone can't shoot off a wail then switch to the deaths arrows.

[Balduvard]

I could have sworn this has been brought up before.

[cathedralmaster]

balduvard said:

I could have sworn this has been brought up before.

Suggestions for Legendary Ability Changes, from pages 2-6.
highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&n=1&thread=6674

Alternatively, it could be past life experiences from parrallel universes intruding upon present thoughts - you never know.

[Becb]

Ah, I didnt tell my search to search far enough back.

In scanning over it I didnt see a definitive answer but I may have missed it.

The original poster said that the regular arrow should be put in in between the wails which I think would be overpowered. I still like my idea

[Balduvard]

That's why I remember this...it depends on how you define "near".

funkyswerve said:

AAs are definitely not getting any more bonuses in the near future.
Funky

I suppose it would be worth noting that AAs did get a bonus after that point via the new bows that were introduced.

[Becb]

Well.... I don't know if this would be a bonus or not because all your getting is something you already had.

[FunkySwerve]

balduvard said:

I suppose it would be worth noting that AAs did get a bonus after that point via the new bows that were introduced.

Only after getting beat hard with the nerfstick.

As far as whether it's a bonus, of course it is. More options = more power, so long as the new option would ever be used over the old.
Funky

[fragment]

I have to support this. Raedita and Raedita II both hated it when their death arrow went away. If you ask me, I'd have *no* problems if the "improved" wail arrow would be eliminated altogether. I much more like to be able to single out targets vulnerable to death.

[unnone]

I held off levelling for 4 or 5 levels with my AA (until my seeker multiplier would increase) so that I could continue to use regular death arrow. I have spoken with at least three people that have done the same. To me, the wail death arrow was a nerf of my ability, not an improvement. I used to have it on my first page of hotkeys. Now it's somewhere next to my bbod staffs on my ctrl page.

One wail = maybe, in a HUGE mass, 30 mobs. With the cooldown timer, I can shoot once every 4 or 5 minutes, which is 24 or 30 rounds. In the same time, I could shoot off 24 or 30 death arrows, and more importantly, I could choose my targets. After my 'upgrade', instead of being able to continually death arrow monsters like barbeds, I get one shot at them, then I have to kill them normally. In addition, the DC of my death attack got walloped at the same time!

If the choice for me were to lose wail arrow and keep the old arrow, I wouldn't hesitate to lose the wail. Death arrow actually had some utility to it. Wail arrow - pfft.

[Balduvard]

If people want it that badly I suppose we could just give you a once per 2 days single target death arrow. Not quite sure why you feel you want to nerf your effect radius though. As Funky already commented, the AAs have been hit pretty hard with the nerfstick already.


...in case you did not catch that, you should restructure your suggestions in a manner that actually suggests something concrete (see OP), rather than elucidate on why you think the grass is a different color elsewhere. As to the suggestion put forth by the OP, again I am unsure why you want to toggle from an area of effect to a single target (any mage should tell you that more victims = better). That being said:

funkyswerve said:

AAs are definitely not getting any more bonuses in the near future.
Funky

And of my own opinion, an unlimited use save or death ability is overpowered and in terms of balance, the AA death arrow should never have had that feature at lower levels (regardless of its average uselessness due to DC).

[unnone]

Balduvar, that suggestion doesn't faze me at all. Remove it entirely right this instant - it won't affect my play style at all, and I won't miss it. I don't use it right now because it can't even kill drow in Mantakloss, much less anything I'd actually want to use it against. To me, it's the same as wielding the vorpal sword from the weapons shop - on a 1 in 400 chance, something will die from it. Except that the sword in the weapons shop isn't usuable once every four minutes.

When death arrow starts becoming useful, i.e. when I can actually kill a *gasp* kyorl with it with a bard's help more than once every 20 arrows, I suddenly lose it. The DC is so low on the wail that it will only kill on a 1. The delay makes it so I can only use it every 4 minutes. So every 4 minutes, I need to hope for (A) something to roll a 1 and (B) that something in the crowd to not be death immune. Give me even a once a day death arrow at a high DC that gives me at least a 50% chance of a kill, and I'll be more than happy to toss away the "Baby cry of the Banshee". The odds are much greater that I'll rest once in 40 minutes than kill something with Babycry in that same amount of time. It plain sucks. Sorry.

Suggestions:
1) Death arrow (preferably unlimited, but 2 or 3 per AA level doesn't seem bad), with low base dc, but with 1 "DC charge" per level of AA, per rest. Simtool command to apply 1, 5, 10, or 15 charges to the next death arrow. ("Black arrow, I have always found you ....you have never failed me...") Charges would raise the DC relative to the number of charges spent for the next arrow. This would give it *some* utility again.

2) Modfied idea of above. Since you think the unlimited death arrow that kills on a 1 is too powerful and all. Limited Death arrows, aa has death charges, number of charges spent on arrows (Simtool command !aadth1, !aadth5, !aadth10) determines dc of death arrow used. Num of charges determined by levels of AA. Thus, a few death arrows that will actually kill something that might need killing, or a more plentiful supply of death arrows useful against foes not as tough. With rests being limited in legendary areas, this shouldn't be overpowering. More limited, but at least the possibility of being useful.

3) Wail that charges up its DC as time passes, so it's actually got a chance to kill something. 4 minutes until it's usable, then 2 minutes more for +1 DC, etc. etc. etc., to a cap of xxxx at some point, DC capped relative to number of AA levels.

4) Replace it with the Rod of Wonder effect, so I can at least turn someone into a chicken with it and get some enjoyment from it.

As far as whether it's a bonus, of course it is. More options = more power, so long as the new option would ever be used over the old.
Funky

I think in this case, it's more that we never use the 'new' option (wail arrow) after losing the old (normal death arrow). Our 'upgrade' isn't an upgrade at all.

[cathedralmaster]

unnone said:

Balduvar, that suggestion doesn't faze me at all. Remove it entirely right this instant - it won't affect my play style at all, and I won't miss it. I don't use it right now because it can't even kill drow in Mantakloss, much less anything I'd actually want to use it against. To me, it's the same as wielding the vorpal sword from the weapons shop - on a 1 in 400 chance, something will die from it. Except that the sword in the weapons shop isn't usuable once every four minutes.

When death arrow starts becoming useful, i.e. when I can actually kill a *gasp* kyorl with it with a bard's help more than once every 20 arrows, I suddenly lose it. The DC is so low on the wail that it will only kill on a 1. The delay makes it so I can only use it every 4 minutes. So every 4 minutes, I need to hope for (A) something to roll a 1 and (B) that something in the crowd to not be death immune. Give me even a once a day death arrow at a high DC that gives me at least a 50% chance of a kill, and I'll be more than happy to toss away the "Baby cry of the Banshee". The odds are much greater that I'll rest once in 40 minutes than kill something with Babycry in that same amount of time. It plain sucks. Sorry.

First off, why are you wasting death arrow charges on mobs where nothing is vulnerable to death magic? You shouldn't have to "hope" for anything, you should know, if by no other means than by checking the examine sheet of the monsters in the mob your trying to death arrow.

Secondly, your not really giving the death arrow the credit it deserves. As Yomi pointed out in regards to the regular death arrow:

sti15 said:

Wow, the AA has better spell penetration than a pure secret-subrace caster who took all the feats. The DC's are comparable to FoD and are unlimited.

highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&n=1&thread=6674&page=3

The dc of a wail death arrow at level 60 with the standard 49 AA build is 54. That's a dc equivalent to a wizard or sorc with the LL evocation focus and a casting ability modifier of 27 (ie. 64 charisma/intelligence). Compare this to my Madie Dementia who had to spend 18 feats and 20 stat points (not to mention maxing the stat at creation). That's phenomenal considering it took your AA no feats at all to aquire it, no special stats, and you end with a better spell penetration than a pure wizard. Both work a lot more than just when things roll a 1.

Read Littlekins (Yomi's) full post here for a more indepth discussion of it:

highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&n=1&thread=6674&page=3

As Baldy, Littlekins et al. have pointed out, if anything the single death arrow is overpowered and needs to be nerfed to bring it into continuity with the later wail effect, not restore people's access to it as the OP suggests.

[FunkySwerve]

unnone said:

As far as whether it's a bonus, of course it is. More options = more power, so long as the new option would ever be used over the old.
Funky

I think in this case, it's more that we never use the 'new' option (wail arrow) after losing the old (normal death arrow). Our 'upgrade' isn't an upgrade at all.

I was responding to the OP, who was debating whether his suggestiong would even constitute a bonus, not to the current incarnation of the wail arrow.
Funky

[unnone]

I'm casting it in mobs of monnsters, not singuler mobile objects.

Tell you what, cath. Let's change your level 9 slots so that all off a sudden when you hit level 50, all your spells become twice a big an area of effect, but they're 10 dc less and you have to wait 4 minutes between casts. Your feat investment has given you a lot more utility and versatility than wailing, especially wailing every four minutes. You can cast those spells chained back to back.

If they want to rework the death arrow completely, go for it. As it is right now, pffft. I toss it out, hope something dies, remember the good old levels when I could have launched another arrow at it, and go back to something I know works - plunking arrows at the mob I wished my wail would have killed.

[khaine]

Personally, I used to use it alot. But I wouldn't use it on kyorls... I use it on archers and things, with low forts, I usually killed 2/3 of the deverials I fired it at, and when I soloed manatakloss it also killed alot of things, especially de'nat and spellcasters.

xD.