Post by johannhowitzer on Nov 27, 2007 4:43:08 GMT
Updated version of Sabregirl's Shifter build from last year, found here.
I liked the idea of adding Rogue to Shifter, especially since Monk is hardly necessary now that Shifters can get Shield AC and Monk AC at the same time (correct me if I'm wrong, please!). However, dropping Druid to 6 and bumping Rogue to 5 loses only 2 DC on breath and mind blast, and makes it possible to splash Rogue at first-level for a good bit more skill points... also the Reflex save improves.
Shifters are feat-wealthy, something that was pretty obvious when looking at Sabregirl's build. Pre-epic feats especially... after the obligatory Expertise, Improved Exp, AP Heavy, WP Exotic, and Toughness feats, there are three empty feat slots really wanting some use. Saves seemed like a good option, and I elected to use the rest on skill foci in the rogue skills, and Discipline for better slag resistance and such while unshifted, since you'll be taking Discipline cross-class.
This can be built with Thri-Kreen or Doppelganger, though the forms may have to wait until later epic levels, and either Armor Skin or WP Martial would have to be made up by dropping something.
Human Anarch, any Neutral
STR 8
DEX 10
CON 14 (18)
INT 14
WIS 18 (24)
CHA 8
Until LLs, ONLY use skill points on Rogue levels, or you won't have enough for the splash at 40!
1 Rogue (max DT, OL, Parry, PP, Search, Tumble, UMD)
2-6 Druid
7-16 Shifter
17-18 Rogue (max same skills, take WP Exotic - only opportunity!)
19 Druid
20 Rogue (max same skills)
21-39 Shifter
40 Rogue (max same skills, will have to be under max by 8 on one skill, probably Parry)
In LLs, take all Discipline until you've maxed it, then fill in the rest with Hide skill.
All feats are listed in the order I would take them.
Pre-epic feats
Expertise
Improved Expertise
Armor Proficiency (heavy)
Lightning Reflexes
Skill Focus (open lock)
Skill Focus (discipline)
Toughness
Weapon Proficiency (exotic) -- MUST be on a Rogue Level, as I set it up that would be Level 18
Epic feats
Outsider Shape
Undead Shape
Dragon Shape
Construct Shape
Epic Skill Focus (open lock)
Great Wisdom I
Epic Skill Focus (disable trap)
Great Wisdom II
Epic Reflexes
Great Wisdom III
Epic Fortitude
Great Wisdom IV
Great Wisdom V
Legendary feats
Legendary Reflexes
Great Wisdom VI
Epic Skill Focus (discipline) -- need 20 ranks in Discipline by this point
Great Wisdom VII
Great Wisdom VIII
Great Wisdom IX
Great Wisdom X
Final / items ][ Dragon Shape / DS + items
STR 8 / 20 ][ 48 / 60
DEX 10 / 22 ][ 36 / 48
CON 18 / 30 ][ 32 / 44
INT 14 / 26
WIS 54 / 66 (72 after double demi/artifact)
CHA 8 / 20
You'll have a Shifter with maximum Wisdom and only one less than "pure" levels - unavoidable if you want skill splash at 40, which I do. Best possible Discipline without splashing Monk or pumping Strength, and enough Rogue skills to pop chests and such in Dragon form deep into LLs. Maximum Open Lock is 125, max Disable Trap is 111 - unless thieves' tools do not factor into the +50 cap; I haven't played rogues enough to know whether they do.
Saves unshifted / Dragon form
Fort 62 / 69
Reflex 67 / 86
Will 72 / 72
Along with Evasion, these mean you can evade just about anything 95% of the time - I think even Tiamat's breath when in Dragon form. With the spare feats, I saw no reason not to take a few extra Reflex feats to help survivability while unshifted. Assuming +20 from items, you'll get 55 unshifted / 74 Dragon form at level 40, which is plenty for taking on the various LL dragons.
AC calculation:
10 Base
16 Natural from Barkskin
18 Armor from various UR plates
16 Shield from most UR towers or Penumbrium
16 Deflection from UR helm/etc (recommend helm to get it into most possible forms)
6 Dexterity bonus unshifted
2 Armor Skin feat
8 Tumble
----------
92 AC unshifted. Very low, but can be improved with various Dodge AC buffs from allies, reaching 112 at Dodge +20. Concealment from Mass Camo buff and your Hide skill will help greatly.
10 Base
16 Natural from Barkskin
18 Armor
16 Shield
16 Deflection from Helm only
19 Dexterity from Dragon form
20 Dodge from Dragon form
2 Armor Skin
8 Tumble
28 Wisdom while shifted
-3 penalty for no Monk level
----------
150 in Dragon form, even in Hell assuming ally buffs cover the penalties to Dodge. Double demi and artifact raise this to 153. Very survivable and Strength/Dexterity scores ensure most checks will miss you. Remember, Shifters are unslaggable while shifted.
Epic spell focus books are completely wasted, even Transmutation since Shifters have an intrinsic Natural AC bonus that's higher anyway, at least while shifted. Read Transmutation if you like, it'll help while unshifted if no Druids are nearby. Grab a Blind Fight/Called Shot pandect if you want, it's the only one that will really do anything at all... True Seeing is on most helms anyway and you won't be hitting much of anything even with Dragon AB. Still, it's better than nothing.
As for playing this build, Sabregirl gave some wonderful advice on Tyran's Shifter thread, found here. Generally speaking, abilities over melee any day - Dragon breath, Medusa gaze, Manticore spikes, Stone Golem rock throw, Death Slaad spittle, Mindflayer blast... oh, and Pickpocket should work pretty well too, in Dragon form for the Dexterity bonus. (Yeah, I'm ten times your size, little buddy. Mind if I root around in your pockets? Oh, you didn't even notice me standing behind you!)
Equipment-wise, you'll want a heavy plate with good AC and lots of special stuff, including physical immunity, maybe some resists, skill bonuses, that sort of thing. Penumbrium or Shaamros are no-brainers in areas featuring Implosion. Pentavite Shield is very nice for its AC and electrical immunity, but there are other good ones out there, too. Your helm ought to have good Deflection AC, since all forms merge helms. Rings will only merge into some forms (go here for the full chart of merging, 2/3 of the way down the page), so you'll want to find good sources of elemental immunity apart from them. GLOVES do not merge at all, and weapons only merge with a select few forms.
Collect gear for various situations, of all shapes and sizes. Lots of gear other builds hate would work great as a Shifter.
Above all, have fun and experiment. You might be surprised what works against some enemies!
EDIT: All the builds on the HGWiki list are relatively unhelpful due to being out-of-date in light of recent module updates, but in trying to add this build to HGWiki, I could not figure out how to get the index number to point correctly. I suspect this is because this build is not in the Archives subforum... is there a way this could be remedied?
EDIT 2: I just noticed that this is also why Tyran's thread isn't linked correctly on the Wiki. Added link to Sabre's play guide as well.
I liked the idea of adding Rogue to Shifter, especially since Monk is hardly necessary now that Shifters can get Shield AC and Monk AC at the same time (correct me if I'm wrong, please!). However, dropping Druid to 6 and bumping Rogue to 5 loses only 2 DC on breath and mind blast, and makes it possible to splash Rogue at first-level for a good bit more skill points... also the Reflex save improves.
Shifters are feat-wealthy, something that was pretty obvious when looking at Sabregirl's build. Pre-epic feats especially... after the obligatory Expertise, Improved Exp, AP Heavy, WP Exotic, and Toughness feats, there are three empty feat slots really wanting some use. Saves seemed like a good option, and I elected to use the rest on skill foci in the rogue skills, and Discipline for better slag resistance and such while unshifted, since you'll be taking Discipline cross-class.
This can be built with Thri-Kreen or Doppelganger, though the forms may have to wait until later epic levels, and either Armor Skin or WP Martial would have to be made up by dropping something.
Human Anarch, any Neutral
STR 8
DEX 10
CON 14 (18)
INT 14
WIS 18 (24)
CHA 8
Until LLs, ONLY use skill points on Rogue levels, or you won't have enough for the splash at 40!
1 Rogue (max DT, OL, Parry, PP, Search, Tumble, UMD)
2-6 Druid
7-16 Shifter
17-18 Rogue (max same skills, take WP Exotic - only opportunity!)
19 Druid
20 Rogue (max same skills)
21-39 Shifter
40 Rogue (max same skills, will have to be under max by 8 on one skill, probably Parry)
In LLs, take all Discipline until you've maxed it, then fill in the rest with Hide skill.
All feats are listed in the order I would take them.
Pre-epic feats
Expertise
Improved Expertise
Armor Proficiency (heavy)
Lightning Reflexes
Skill Focus (open lock)
Skill Focus (discipline)
Toughness
Weapon Proficiency (exotic) -- MUST be on a Rogue Level, as I set it up that would be Level 18
Epic feats
Outsider Shape
Undead Shape
Dragon Shape
Construct Shape
Epic Skill Focus (open lock)
Great Wisdom I
Epic Skill Focus (disable trap)
Great Wisdom II
Epic Reflexes
Great Wisdom III
Epic Fortitude
Great Wisdom IV
Great Wisdom V
Legendary feats
Legendary Reflexes
Great Wisdom VI
Epic Skill Focus (discipline) -- need 20 ranks in Discipline by this point
Great Wisdom VII
Great Wisdom VIII
Great Wisdom IX
Great Wisdom X
Final / items ][ Dragon Shape / DS + items
STR 8 / 20 ][ 48 / 60
DEX 10 / 22 ][ 36 / 48
CON 18 / 30 ][ 32 / 44
INT 14 / 26
WIS 54 / 66 (72 after double demi/artifact)
CHA 8 / 20
You'll have a Shifter with maximum Wisdom and only one less than "pure" levels - unavoidable if you want skill splash at 40, which I do. Best possible Discipline without splashing Monk or pumping Strength, and enough Rogue skills to pop chests and such in Dragon form deep into LLs. Maximum Open Lock is 125, max Disable Trap is 111 - unless thieves' tools do not factor into the +50 cap; I haven't played rogues enough to know whether they do.
Saves unshifted / Dragon form
Fort 62 / 69
Reflex 67 / 86
Will 72 / 72
Along with Evasion, these mean you can evade just about anything 95% of the time - I think even Tiamat's breath when in Dragon form. With the spare feats, I saw no reason not to take a few extra Reflex feats to help survivability while unshifted. Assuming +20 from items, you'll get 55 unshifted / 74 Dragon form at level 40, which is plenty for taking on the various LL dragons.
AC calculation:
10 Base
16 Natural from Barkskin
18 Armor from various UR plates
16 Shield from most UR towers or Penumbrium
16 Deflection from UR helm/etc (recommend helm to get it into most possible forms)
6 Dexterity bonus unshifted
2 Armor Skin feat
8 Tumble
----------
92 AC unshifted. Very low, but can be improved with various Dodge AC buffs from allies, reaching 112 at Dodge +20. Concealment from Mass Camo buff and your Hide skill will help greatly.
10 Base
16 Natural from Barkskin
18 Armor
16 Shield
16 Deflection from Helm only
19 Dexterity from Dragon form
20 Dodge from Dragon form
2 Armor Skin
8 Tumble
28 Wisdom while shifted
-3 penalty for no Monk level
----------
150 in Dragon form, even in Hell assuming ally buffs cover the penalties to Dodge. Double demi and artifact raise this to 153. Very survivable and Strength/Dexterity scores ensure most checks will miss you. Remember, Shifters are unslaggable while shifted.
Epic spell focus books are completely wasted, even Transmutation since Shifters have an intrinsic Natural AC bonus that's higher anyway, at least while shifted. Read Transmutation if you like, it'll help while unshifted if no Druids are nearby. Grab a Blind Fight/Called Shot pandect if you want, it's the only one that will really do anything at all... True Seeing is on most helms anyway and you won't be hitting much of anything even with Dragon AB. Still, it's better than nothing.
As for playing this build, Sabregirl gave some wonderful advice on Tyran's Shifter thread, found here. Generally speaking, abilities over melee any day - Dragon breath, Medusa gaze, Manticore spikes, Stone Golem rock throw, Death Slaad spittle, Mindflayer blast... oh, and Pickpocket should work pretty well too, in Dragon form for the Dexterity bonus. (Yeah, I'm ten times your size, little buddy. Mind if I root around in your pockets? Oh, you didn't even notice me standing behind you!)
Equipment-wise, you'll want a heavy plate with good AC and lots of special stuff, including physical immunity, maybe some resists, skill bonuses, that sort of thing. Penumbrium or Shaamros are no-brainers in areas featuring Implosion. Pentavite Shield is very nice for its AC and electrical immunity, but there are other good ones out there, too. Your helm ought to have good Deflection AC, since all forms merge helms. Rings will only merge into some forms (go here for the full chart of merging, 2/3 of the way down the page), so you'll want to find good sources of elemental immunity apart from them. GLOVES do not merge at all, and weapons only merge with a select few forms.
Collect gear for various situations, of all shapes and sizes. Lots of gear other builds hate would work great as a Shifter.
Above all, have fun and experiment. You might be surprised what works against some enemies!
EDIT: All the builds on the HGWiki list are relatively unhelpful due to being out-of-date in light of recent module updates, but in trying to add this build to HGWiki, I could not figure out how to get the index number to point correctly. I suspect this is because this build is not in the Archives subforum... is there a way this could be remedied?
EDIT 2: I just noticed that this is also why Tyran's thread isn't linked correctly on the Wiki. Added link to Sabre's play guide as well.