Post by mishimayukio on Aug 21, 2006 1:34:56 GMT
Been seeing a lot of poor building choices recently and thought I would help a bit. I apologize for the poor format but I'm not so great at writing.
General theme: HP is very important, there is tons of unavoidable damage you will take on HG, and the only way to stay alive is to have a large buffer of HP to keep you going in-between heals.
Stats:
Basically you want to max your primary offensive stat and then meet minimum requirements on other stats, then try to put as many points as you can in Con. As a rule of thumb, I try to avoid
con penalty subraces and use con increasing ones more often unless I don't have a choice for my build, and then if I have spare epic feats I will take great con before LLs. I also avoid letting con go under 14, or 12 if I'm using a con penalty subrace.
Dex Builds:
Leave str at 6 or 8. The feats and few extra points of damage are not worth losing dex or con over, which keeps you alive.
Str builds: leave dex at 6 or 8, unless you need WM or DD.
Splash monk dual wielders, or monk builds:
Wisdom should be a lower priority than con, basically either leave it at 8-10 or up it to 14 if you have spare stat points.
Casters:
I can't begin to explain how important HP is to a caster. After maxing your primary casting stat to 18-23, you want con to be at least 16-18, possibly even 20 with a con increasing subrace like planewalker. After that put some points into int for skill points. Wizards can spend the points into int into dex and/or wisdom for saves.
Skills listed in order of usefulness:
Concentration (casters)
Tumble
Discipline
Perform (If a bard)
Heal (If a caster cleric)
Animal empathy (If a druid/ranger)
Open lock/disable traps/search (If a rogue or assassin with a rogue level.)
UMD (you only need 33 for scrolls, will need a little more if your charisma is under 10. If you have spare skills points feel free to max it.)
Pickpocket (Dexers only need 10-20 depending on what kind of shield they use, str builds using full plate/tower will need the full 43.
Taunt (useful for breaking GS and lowering AC, will need the full 63 ranks to affect casters)
Lore (need about 50 to ID level 40 items, some illithid gear and most URs need about 60.)
Concentration (non casters, for resisting taunt)
Feats:
Toughness (must have feat for everyone)
Great Con (Take this in even amounts if you have spare feats
Pre-epic save feats (take these if you have extra pre-epic feats, lowest saves first.)
Melee/AA builds:
Armor skin
Epic weapon focus
Epic prowess
Blind fight
improved critical
Weapon focus
Rapid Shot (for AAs)
Expertise/Improved Expertise (for melee)
Dex builds
Epic fort (if fort is under 52 at level 40
Epic will ( if will is under 48 at level 40
Self conceal 1-5 (These are hard to fit in, but well worth it if you have improved evasion.)
Str builds:
epic fort (if fort is under 52 at level 40
epic will ( if will is under 48 at level 40
epic reflex (if reflex is under 52 at level 40
WMs:
Power attack/Improved power attack
Knockdown/Improved knockdown
Disarm/Improved disarm
All casters:
Combat casting
Improved combat casting (I hear you can skip these if you are good at using defensive casting mode, but I didn't have much luck with it.)
regular-legendary spell penetration
Caster clerics:
Regular-legendary spell focus evocation
Maximize spell
Silent Spell
Sorc/wiz:
Regular-legendary spell focus necromancy
Regular-legendary spell focus evocation
Silent Spell
Maximize spell
Empower Spell
Caster druid:
Regular-epic spell focus evocation
Regular-epic spell focus transmutation
Regular-epic spell focus conjuration
Regular-epic spell focus necromancy
Regular-epic spell focus abjuration
Silent Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
With caster druids its not as important to max wisdom as it is to get those 5 epics. Dropping 2-4 great wisdom feats is pretty much your only choice if you want to get all 5.
Rogues:
Improved evasion
Defensive roll
Epic dodge
Epic skill focus disable trap/search
Slippery mind
Common Mistakes:
Cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical etc. (Just not worth the stiff requirements for something of questionable worth. Even cleave can be a hazard in areas with kickback monsters.)
Circle kick
BAB mishaps:
When mixing 3/4 BAB classes (rogue/monk etc.) with full BAB classes (fighter/paladin/ranger etc.) pre-epic, always try to take the 3/4 BAB classes in groups of 4. For example, a 8 rogue/12 fighter would have 1 more AB than a 9 rogue/11 fighter. This post explains it best:
Your final BAB, base saves, and number of attacks are determined by wha you do before level 20. Epic progression is the same for all classes, so mix and match however you like up there.
There are 3 different AB progressions, repeating in blocks of 4 class levels, that depend on how melee-oriented the class is.
"fighter": 1/1/1/1 (full progression)
"rogue": 0/1/1/1 (3/4 progression)
"wizard": 0/1/0/1 (2/4 or 1/2 progression)
The best level 20 BAB you can have is 20 (all melee tank, such as Fighter/Ranger). If you add 1 Rogue (19 Fighter/1 Rogue), you get a 0 for that rogue level, leaving you 19 AB. The next 3 Rogue levels get 1, so 16 Fighter/4 Rogue is also 19 AB. Add a 5th Rogue, and you get 18 AB.
You get an extra attack at pre-20 BAB of 6, 11, and 16. That's why Mish's Bard has 16 Bard/4 Paladin for the first 20. You get 0 AB at bard 1, 5, 9, and 13, for a pre-20 BAB of 16 and 4 attacks. With 17 Bard, you get another 0, which would be BAB of 15, and only 3 attacks.
Saves are more complicated. Each class has high and low saves, which you can guess from the class. Rogue likes reflex, Clerics like Fort and Will, Fighters like Fort, etc.
Low: 0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0
High: 2/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1
As you might guess, that +2 to start the high line means you usually get the best saves if you involve all 3 classes before level 20. From there, you need to balance it with your BAB progression to get a build that works well for you.
The tables in the manual break down the AB progression and saves for each class.
General theme: HP is very important, there is tons of unavoidable damage you will take on HG, and the only way to stay alive is to have a large buffer of HP to keep you going in-between heals.
Stats:
Basically you want to max your primary offensive stat and then meet minimum requirements on other stats, then try to put as many points as you can in Con. As a rule of thumb, I try to avoid
con penalty subraces and use con increasing ones more often unless I don't have a choice for my build, and then if I have spare epic feats I will take great con before LLs. I also avoid letting con go under 14, or 12 if I'm using a con penalty subrace.
Dex Builds:
Leave str at 6 or 8. The feats and few extra points of damage are not worth losing dex or con over, which keeps you alive.
Str builds: leave dex at 6 or 8, unless you need WM or DD.
Splash monk dual wielders, or monk builds:
Wisdom should be a lower priority than con, basically either leave it at 8-10 or up it to 14 if you have spare stat points.
Casters:
I can't begin to explain how important HP is to a caster. After maxing your primary casting stat to 18-23, you want con to be at least 16-18, possibly even 20 with a con increasing subrace like planewalker. After that put some points into int for skill points. Wizards can spend the points into int into dex and/or wisdom for saves.
Skills listed in order of usefulness:
Concentration (casters)
Tumble
Discipline
Perform (If a bard)
Heal (If a caster cleric)
Animal empathy (If a druid/ranger)
Open lock/disable traps/search (If a rogue or assassin with a rogue level.)
UMD (you only need 33 for scrolls, will need a little more if your charisma is under 10. If you have spare skills points feel free to max it.)
Pickpocket (Dexers only need 10-20 depending on what kind of shield they use, str builds using full plate/tower will need the full 43.
Taunt (useful for breaking GS and lowering AC, will need the full 63 ranks to affect casters)
Lore (need about 50 to ID level 40 items, some illithid gear and most URs need about 60.)
Concentration (non casters, for resisting taunt)
Feats:
Toughness (must have feat for everyone)
Great Con (Take this in even amounts if you have spare feats
Pre-epic save feats (take these if you have extra pre-epic feats, lowest saves first.)
Melee/AA builds:
Armor skin
Epic weapon focus
Epic prowess
Blind fight
improved critical
Weapon focus
Rapid Shot (for AAs)
Expertise/Improved Expertise (for melee)
Dex builds
Epic fort (if fort is under 52 at level 40
Epic will ( if will is under 48 at level 40
Self conceal 1-5 (These are hard to fit in, but well worth it if you have improved evasion.)
Str builds:
epic fort (if fort is under 52 at level 40
epic will ( if will is under 48 at level 40
epic reflex (if reflex is under 52 at level 40
WMs:
Power attack/Improved power attack
Knockdown/Improved knockdown
Disarm/Improved disarm
All casters:
Combat casting
Improved combat casting (I hear you can skip these if you are good at using defensive casting mode, but I didn't have much luck with it.)
regular-legendary spell penetration
Caster clerics:
Regular-legendary spell focus evocation
Maximize spell
Silent Spell
Sorc/wiz:
Regular-legendary spell focus necromancy
Regular-legendary spell focus evocation
Silent Spell
Maximize spell
Empower Spell
Caster druid:
Regular-epic spell focus evocation
Regular-epic spell focus transmutation
Regular-epic spell focus conjuration
Regular-epic spell focus necromancy
Regular-epic spell focus abjuration
Silent Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
With caster druids its not as important to max wisdom as it is to get those 5 epics. Dropping 2-4 great wisdom feats is pretty much your only choice if you want to get all 5.
Rogues:
Improved evasion
Defensive roll
Epic dodge
Epic skill focus disable trap/search
Slippery mind
Common Mistakes:
Cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical etc. (Just not worth the stiff requirements for something of questionable worth. Even cleave can be a hazard in areas with kickback monsters.)
Circle kick
BAB mishaps:
When mixing 3/4 BAB classes (rogue/monk etc.) with full BAB classes (fighter/paladin/ranger etc.) pre-epic, always try to take the 3/4 BAB classes in groups of 4. For example, a 8 rogue/12 fighter would have 1 more AB than a 9 rogue/11 fighter. This post explains it best:
hiryuu said:
Your final BAB, base saves, and number of attacks are determined by wha you do before level 20. Epic progression is the same for all classes, so mix and match however you like up there.
There are 3 different AB progressions, repeating in blocks of 4 class levels, that depend on how melee-oriented the class is.
"fighter": 1/1/1/1 (full progression)
"rogue": 0/1/1/1 (3/4 progression)
"wizard": 0/1/0/1 (2/4 or 1/2 progression)
The best level 20 BAB you can have is 20 (all melee tank, such as Fighter/Ranger). If you add 1 Rogue (19 Fighter/1 Rogue), you get a 0 for that rogue level, leaving you 19 AB. The next 3 Rogue levels get 1, so 16 Fighter/4 Rogue is also 19 AB. Add a 5th Rogue, and you get 18 AB.
You get an extra attack at pre-20 BAB of 6, 11, and 16. That's why Mish's Bard has 16 Bard/4 Paladin for the first 20. You get 0 AB at bard 1, 5, 9, and 13, for a pre-20 BAB of 16 and 4 attacks. With 17 Bard, you get another 0, which would be BAB of 15, and only 3 attacks.
Saves are more complicated. Each class has high and low saves, which you can guess from the class. Rogue likes reflex, Clerics like Fort and Will, Fighters like Fort, etc.
Low: 0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0
High: 2/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1
As you might guess, that +2 to start the high line means you usually get the best saves if you involve all 3 classes before level 20. From there, you need to balance it with your BAB progression to get a build that works well for you.
The tables in the manual break down the AB progression and saves for each class.