|
Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 7, 2007 16:20:52 GMT
6Ranger, 2Fighter, 6WM, 6Ranger - better saves? 7WM at level 21 then?
I need two extra pre-epic feats though if I want to take double axe, but I almost feel greataxe is better? I won't get the extra attacks per round so whats the point of going to double axe, is it because it has a better crit range? I still need to get blind fight in there, I forgot to take it last night.
|
|
|
Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 7, 2007 16:25:43 GMT
ye but that 2nd fighter lvl looks really out of place for what it's worth; and I'd swap ftr for pally any day, if this wasn't a strictly cow build ^^ Hey now the cow is sexy =) I want to start this build with my girlfriend but I want to perfect it before this evening. I'll look at this more at work :-)
|
|
|
Post by sabregirl on Aug 7, 2007 18:46:01 GMT
Well I think you have a number of issues here. Number one I'm rather surprised you've gone to weaponmaster after railing that it was unoriginal and boring. In any case I'm also surprised you're going with minotaur over stinger (I'm pretty sure you guys have access to that race as well) Since both are large and stinger is custom made for weaponmaster (though the wis penalty may hurt you more). You're having to take a lot of bonus feats using fighter levels, which cuts you off from tumble AC, leaving you down 2 AC at lvl 60. I would highly suggest either going with rogue for tumble AC or possibly paladin/blackguard for free save bonus, which as a str ranger you will need desparately. Your weapon choice is a little lackluster since you have no option to dual something like greataxes. You could instead go for a somewhat unique approach and go with spears as your weapon of choice since they are the only large weapon that can be used in off hand. Given the bonus to offhand AC (up to +15 ac for a pure ranger) dualing as a strength fighter is likely to be viable in a lot of areas and something to consider. Also note that taking the low level dualing feats is unecessary - if you want to dual in anything over light armor, you simply need an item with the two low level dualing feats ambidextry and two weapon fighting as found on parson's preserver and the bur gloves of the amnizu. All of that said STR ranger weaponmaster is probably best done with Kolyarut simply due to the expense of getting saves to a reasonable level, though you've come up with a decent alternative. My personal thought for a new STR weaponmaster was 35 Ranger 5 Harper Scout, giving a bigger conceal drop, more AC and more elemental immunity, plus tumble and a bonus attack. You lose out on some offense for not being weaponmaster but will be partly made up for in your ability to dual. All that said dualing weaponmaster STR ranger is a blast at least at the relatively low levels I have played mine (Ssith and DB runs). -S P. S. - Also note to Lala please don't assume you know what is or is not going to change in the future and randomly give people reasons to panic over build choices. If you have seen the hells set armor with dualing feats and exotic weapon proficiency for free, you might think otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by tarrin on Aug 7, 2007 19:22:25 GMT
My personal thought for a new STR weaponmaster was 35 Ranger 5 Harper Scout, giving a bigger conceal drop, more AC and more elemental immunity, plus tumble and a bonus attack. My build of this (34 Ranger, 5 Harper Scout, 1 Rogue, used Battlerager) has been quite fun to play so far, though suffered from really low saves until late LL, as I couldn't wait to get the 40 base strength needed for crit immune. I was originally going to go WM, but couldn't fit the feats in, and the skill points needed seemed a bit of a waste, so Harper Scout was the most interesting alternative. Wanted to take the levels other then ranger in even amounts too, so the element spell wouldn't be too badly affected.
|
|
|
Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 7, 2007 19:46:25 GMT
Well I think you have a number of issues here. Number one I'm rather surprised you've gone to weaponmaster after railing that it was unoriginal and boring. In any case I'm also surprised you're going with minotaur over stinger (I'm pretty sure you guys have access to that race as well) Since both are large and stinger is custom made for weaponmaster (though the wis penalty may hurt you more). You're having to take a lot of bonus feats using fighter levels, which cuts you off from tumble AC, leaving you down 2 AC at lvl 60. I would highly suggest either going with rogue for tumble AC or possibly paladin/blackguard for free save bonus, which as a str ranger you will need desparately. Your weapon choice is a little lackluster since you have no option to dual something like greataxes. You could instead go for a somewhat unique approach and go with spears as your weapon of choice since they are the only large weapon that can be used in off hand. Given the bonus to offhand AC (up to +15 ac for a pure ranger) dualing as a strength fighter is likely to be viable in a lot of areas and something to consider. Also note that taking the low level dualing feats is unecessary - if you want to dual in anything over light armor, you simply need an item with the two low level dualing feats ambidextry and two weapon fighting as found on parson's preserver and the bur gloves of the amnizu. All of that said STR ranger weaponmaster is probably best done with Kolyarut simply due to the expense of getting saves to a reasonable level, though you've come up with a decent alternative. My personal thought for a new STR weaponmaster was 35 Ranger 5 Harper Scout, giving a bigger conceal drop, more AC and more elemental immunity, plus tumble and a bonus attack. You lose out on some offense for not being weaponmaster but will be partly made up for in your ability to dual. All that said dualing weaponmaster STR ranger is a blast at least at the relatively low levels I have played mine (Ssith and DB runs). -S P. S. - Also note to Lala please don't assume you know what is or is not going to change in the future and randomly give people reasons to panic over build choices. If you have seen the hells set armor with dualing feats and exotic weapon proficiency for free, you might think otherwise. I'm going with halberd instead and just using a shield. DD/WM is so played out so I was looking for something more unique. It was my fault I didn't explain that in the intro, which has been noted for future suggestion builds. Version 2.00 is redone with 4 fighter levels. I want to use halberd. I'll rebuild a new ranger in the future when I get better races. Thanks a lot for the insight on higher level game.
|
|
|
Post by lala on Aug 7, 2007 22:50:06 GMT
Sabre it is not scare mongering what I am saying about the large dual wpns.
I remember when I posted the suggestion for them to be 18-20/x3 and at the time the view was that maybe it was over the top in capability and that it was subject to review.
We have seen the Large double weapons already changed once with regards to the fact you need the TWF feats to get the 2 extra attacks.
Now if everyone starts taking large dual wpns for the 18-20/x3 on large shapes with 8 dex, no TWF related feats and no intention of dual wielding it will not be reviewed? Personally I cannot see the issue with pointing this out to players who make builds focused on Large dual weapons this way.
I have seen the armour, however lets not forget that the large dual weapons have been mentioned in the past as the schtick for Barbarians (even recently by Acaos). Cheers Lala
|
|
|
Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 7, 2007 23:31:49 GMT
Halberd <----- this is why im hot!
|
|
|
Post by sabregirl on Aug 8, 2007 2:03:37 GMT
I'm well aware of the provisional status of some of the weapons. However, what if any changes will be made are unknown and making specific recommendations, based on an assumed remedy is premature which, is primarily what I was reacting to rather than a total dismissal of the possibility of changes. Also there's the upcoming reincarnation system that would probably be in place soon after any drastic changes to weapons. I personally don't think limiting the weapons to only be *equipped* by someone with 15 dex is a solution, it just would make double weapons hard for anyone at all to use, and limited to those with BUR races. I think double weapons should be part of the barbarian's schtick, dex or no. Though there is some reported bugginess with the bonus attacks on barbarians which we are looking into. Still there's something nice about having them as a decent weapon for those who can't afford weaponmaster but can afford an exotic feat and improved crit. And Zero - I really think you should go spears as dualing is fun and . . .well the ranger's "schtick" . . . ^_^. Just think you could dual Immortal Glaives -S
|
|
|
Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 8, 2007 2:17:40 GMT
And Zero - I really think you should go spears as dualing is fun and . . .well the ranger's "schtick" . . . ^_^. Just think you could dual Immortal Glaives Yeah I do like the dual spears, I always have. But I want to test out the halberd and if I don't like it at 60 I'll redo the build. I agree on the spears though, I like spears, there one of my fav weapons. This character is going to take a while to get to 60 since I still have a druid I need to get there first, and I'm working on building a bunch of characters to play and work on with my girl. We just got two new races from delf(thanks again man!) that im going to look over tomorrow for us.
|
|
|
Post by lala on Aug 8, 2007 10:08:27 GMT
Sabre, even you commented that barbarians would go 15 dex straight off the bat as part of your suggestion to increase the dex limitation on the Thid shield.
I am not sure anyone would go less than 15 dex for barb as they want the extra 2 attacks as quick as possible. In my build I have all the feats by lvl 6 and thats going a lot of Barb levels.
My biggest concern is that the easiest solution the dev team could take is reduce the crit back to 19-20/x3 as all large weapons, personally as the one who argued strongly for the 18-20/x3 I feel this would suck.
As mentioned before more and more are going large double weapons with large races and without the requirements. So for a player to invest time in a build on a weapon that is under notice of revision I feel it is worth raising the awareness of potential change due to the way the weapon is used. Saves the outcry if (and to stress I do not know what will happen as Sabre says) it changes with players saying their char has been robbed of its playability, even though its clear the large dual weapons are meant to be dual wielded by all apart from Barbarians (who still need the dex and feats).
Last point on it; where this breaks down is that Barbarians are the only ones who have to take 15 dex AND the feats because they benefit from the extra 2 attacks. However this means every other build gets an advantage on stats and feats AND able to put in WM, which is happening. As I said before invest in the weapon without stats and feats if you want to but dont cry if it changes in the future.....
Cheers Lala
|
|
|
Post by sabregirl on Aug 8, 2007 18:20:13 GMT
I honestly think it's primarily the combination of double weapons with weaponmaster that makes them extremely powerful in which case you're already stuck doing 13 dex anyway so I don't see requiring 15 as being too much of a hindrance. Also remember that without barbarian using WM just for the power of the weapon is already limited to a relatively small pool of large races, most of which can probably easily afford the stats. Who it would hurt is a non WM barbarian (and lower tier races) that simply chose to use double weapons since it had a good combination of properties. I don't see the point in nerfing those people, if there is a problem it's not with them. I would see dropping the crit range back 19-20 as a better solution (or making them different), and using the bonus attacks to raise the weapons to prominence for barbs and those not using a shield.
Again I'm not entirely seeing the point of "warning people" since you're the only one proposing that the actual equipping of the weapon be restricted, while a crit range, bonus attack or mult change would not be a playability change. Again, reincarnation is such that things can be tried without panic of a character being permanently ruined. Anyway if we want to continue a double weapon discussion I think we need to make a new thread.
As to the topic at hand I still say dualing is the most fun thing to try on a STR ranger and spears are pretty much your only option if you want to go with a large weapon on a large race. Double weapons are an excellent choice if you're going for single wielding. Remember that halberd is a double damage type weapon, and suffers from the associated problems. The highest damage resistance of the two types will apply (piercing vs. slashing) but the lowest damage immunity will apply. A weapon like that is a double edged sword (pardon the pun). A lot of people avoid them like the plague due to the prevalence of DR on monsters.
-S
|
|
|
Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 8, 2007 19:10:13 GMT
I don't want to dual weild unless I go dex because I need to wear robes, and I might as well add in monk for the monk ac also. Which would change my build entirely.
I do agree on everything your saying, but I want to use halberd, and with the new reincarnation system coming out, I might as well do it. If halberd is that bad, I'll change it later. I just really think a Ranger Minotaur W/Halberd is funny because of Diablo 2. So basically I'm going for style points, even if dual wielding is more attractive. But I really feel I'd have to make it a DEX based build for a great dual weapon character, and on top of that I'd have to take monk to help with the AC more.
32ranger, 1monk, 7wm - DEX Based, Dual Weilding, Cloth Armor.
|
|
|
Post by sabregirl on Aug 8, 2007 19:45:33 GMT
You don't have to wear robes as a STR fighter to dual wield. I have found dualing as a STR ranger to be far easier than dualing as a dex ranger with robes and a monk level because the ACs between the two are really not all that different. The strength fighter has the advantage of being able to have considerably more immunity (both elemental and physical) than the dexer as well as the potential for crit immunity with high enough strength. I really can't stress how much more fragile a dex ranger is compared to a strength version at current. I would not build a dex ranger until changes are made as I have found them to be nearly unplayable in the lower levels of the hells simply due to relatively low AC and conceal compared to just about any other dexer you can shake a stick at. Getting hit and being dex are incompatible with living in the hells.
I have seen other str fighters dualing in the hells on occasion with builds that do not give any offhand AC. Rangers by contrast especially WITHOUT a monk level would give you around 12 bonus shield ac (at 60 assuming at least 14 wisdom) to your offhand while dualing. While not quite matching a shield, it's certainly something to consider especially since a ranger gets higher immunity (since as mentioned earlier you can dual just fine in plate so long as you have the items) and more conceal than your average STR fighter.
-S
|
|
|
Post by ZeroGravitySE on Aug 8, 2007 20:04:10 GMT
|
|
|
Post by wnxhalfwingseen on Aug 8, 2007 20:55:40 GMT
just redid my thing and at lvl 60 with this build your looking at +7 ab vs favored enemies with your build which is very ncie as to the dual or not i say not as this build is strpped for feats and to be honest double weapons cost so much in trade if you dont have them free in your own supplies your better off with halbred or such lesser used weapons
|
|