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Post by iggy on Mar 30, 2007 10:54:42 GMT
I really would have liked to have epic damage reduction in there. However with the added immunity from LLs and some nice resist items in the game I feel that once you are dealt damage it is from blows doing massive damage (crits etc). In those situations the extra 9 point reduction may not count too much. The build will end up having str 56(=+12=68) at 60 and I don't think you'd loose a lot by only taking great strength 1-8 and then maybe use 2 legendary feats for epic damage reduction 1-2. Might be worth considering. Cheers, Claus hmmmh i believe u will find that epic DR and dwarven deffender DR stack, so at 22 lvls DD u will be getting 15 dr from the DD lvls and 9 from ur epic DR giving u 24 DR, not something to turn ur nose up at, especially if u add resists of say 20 allowing u to negate 44 points off said crits. On top of that 1% immune in most cases wont add up to 9 hp worth of dmg.
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Post by ekstroem on Mar 30, 2007 11:20:28 GMT
hmmmh i believe u will find that epic DR and dwarven deffender DR stack, so at 22 lvls DD u will be getting 15 dr from the DD lvls and 9 from ur epic DR giving u 24 DR, not something to turn ur nose up at, especially if u add resists of say 20 allowing u to negate 44 points off said crits. On top of that 1% immune in most cases wont add up to 9 hp worth of dmg. The two resistances stack but we're still only talking a difference in 9 point. While 9 points of negated physical damage is always a nice thing it is very rarely the physical damage that gives you problems. If you have 35 total resist and, say, 70% physical immunity, you'd cancel the first 35/0.30 = 116 physical damage. Throw in a soak item +15/10 (or even +14/19 from stoneskin!) and you'll laugh at the first 180 physical damage. Clearly this number will increase quite a bit with EDR, but EDR is hardly necessary. 1% immunity will likely never amount to 9 points but +2 STR will give you +1 AB and +1 damage. As with everything else it's a matter of choice. I remember some of the first times I took my DD to Avernus and when he was critted by the Barbazu he took around 1-10 points of damage. Cheers, Claus
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Post by zerragon on Mar 30, 2007 12:02:18 GMT
Having played my Tin can all the way to Cania, I can safely say that physical damage is no issue. I wouldnt "waste" EDR feats on this class, as the inborn DD resitance + item resistance +DD innate % immunity + item % immunity + item Soak eliminates most physical damage, even deep in Hell.
What kills him are 1 rolls on critical saves, or wearing wrong elemental rings, and thats it.
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Post by flynn01 on Mar 30, 2007 19:25:17 GMT
I'm doing this build with, of all things, the Lycan subrace. "But that's a DEX subrace." you say. Well true, but we use what we have. The DDs immunities covers nicely the piercing vuln, the added reflex saves are pleasant, and I'm a fan of speed to get me to where I need to be.
I also use the appearance of the gamma-irradiated Tony the Tiger. It fits this build perfectly and has such style!
It may never be as maximized as BURR-built or BR build..... But It's Grrrrrrrreat!!!
Wanted to say thanks for the build.
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Post by phalthallus on Mar 31, 2007 6:17:43 GMT
Another thing Lycan does (I TOTALLY ripped off Flynn's idea and started one of these after talking with him - and even used the same portrait by complete coincidence) is give Dodge for free, freeing up some stat points in the beginning. It does seem odd to use it as one of the subraces for this build, but it does seem to work pretty well.
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Post by iggy on Mar 31, 2007 19:09:20 GMT
The two resistances stack but we're still only talking a difference in 9 point. While 9 points of negated physical damage is always a nice thing it is very rarely the physical damage that gives you problems. If you have 35 total resist and, say, [glow=red,2,300]70% physical immunity[/glow], you'd cancel the first 35/0.30 = 116 physical damage. Throw in a soak item +15/10 (or even +14/19 from stoneskin!) and you'll laugh at the first 180 physical damage.
Clearly this number will increase quite a bit with EDR, but EDR is hardly necessary. 1% immunity will likely never amount to 9 points but +2 STR will give you +1 AB and +1 damage. As with everything else it's a matter of choice. I remember some of the first times I took my DD to Avernus and when he was critted by the Barbazu he took around 1-10 points of damage.
Cheers,
Claus[/quote]
well i agree with the fact 70% immune is a very nice percentage however would'nt the extra 9 from EDR allow u to remove 10%(gaunts for instance) off that and still give u the same overall physi dmg from said crit, allowing u to equip another item with ele immunes on, increasing your chances of surviving shuntless.
Again it's like u said personal prefrence nothing wrong with the build works fine i just feel extra ele immune would be more advantageous in hells when in those sticky situations.
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Post by Kallan/ Kallana on Apr 7, 2007 9:38:57 GMT
I don't know if i am missing something, but until now this is a mystery to me - why does anyone care about charisma on this toon? It is not a bard and bard spells are pretty weak any way ( unless you are a true bard ) I started with CHA 5 (battlerager adjusted). Why waste any ability points in CHA at all on this build? I have gotten to 45 lvl so far and cant see any point at all at being able to cast bard spells - this build is a tank. One person's build I saw even had a starting CHA at 16.
Some info on my build.
Battlerager 6 bard/15 rdd/ 19 DD
I took 5 bard to get enough lore to get RDD - then 6 RDD to get AB high enough to get DD. Filled DD out enough to get the 4th attack per round (lvl 20) then started on RDD to get INT bonus early to get more skill points until i got 15 lvls. Filled DD out until lvl 39 then took a bard lvl to max tumble. I am walking through most areas that would normally pwn me on other toons - like devs can mass without out a scratch.
I just don't see the point of spending more than 6 lvls on bard and definately not spending valuable ability points on CHA. They could be better spent on STR for attack bonus or DEX for reflex saves - I think CON is a waste after an item adjusted +12 - you normal don't take enough damage to be scrambling for a heal before you die. As far as I have noticed a failed reflex save is the only thing that is going to kill you - without being able to deal with the situation before you go under 300 HP. Am I missing something here? - I can't see how having 3rd lvl bard spells could help this toon - especially considering you are wearing full plate most of the time and you bard song is always going to suck and even be determental if there is a real bard in the party and you cast it first.
My projection for abilities at 60 lvl is: (adjusted for battlerager)
naked:
STR: 54 DEX: 14 CON: 22 INT: 14 WIS: 08 CHA: 16
with decent gear
STR: 70 DEX: 14 CON: 34 WIS: 12 CHA: 16
What am I missing here?
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Post by mrslayer on Apr 7, 2007 9:56:58 GMT
You need cha 11 when you start as a bard (lvl1). Batttlerager drops it down to about 8. Pre epic you take 5 bard (minimum) and a mixture of dd (max 10) RDD and bard. To max ab you need to take 4 rdd and 1 more bard. Stat wise I went down to 8 int and boosted my con by 1. The feat will become EDR. Max switch out 2 str to get edr3.
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Post by ekstroem on Apr 7, 2007 9:59:40 GMT
I don't know if i am missing something, but until now this is a mystery to me - why does anyone care about charisma on this toon? It is not a bard and bard spells are pretty weak any way ( unless you are a true bard ) I started with CHA 5 (battlerager adjusted). Why waste any ability points in CHA at all on this build? I have gotten to 45 lvl so far and cant see any point at all at being able to cast bard spells - this build is a tank. I'm not really sure where you read that CHA is important for this build. CHA is "important" for one reason only: If you start as a bard you need to have a minimum starting value of 11 in CHA which is your primary ability. In my version of NWN I'm not able to circumvent that although I'd love to. I dont know how you managed to start with a CHA of 5 (that would imply a starting value of 8). If you have a pre-epic progression that reads 5 bard/6 rdd/9 dd you'll get 1 lower fort, will and ab compared to 6 bard/4 rdd/10dd. So will any other combination with more RDD levels pre-epic. How are you getting naked CHA of 16 when you started with a value of 5? Cheers, Claus
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Post by Yomi on Apr 7, 2007 10:31:31 GMT
My DD/RDD has a final CHA of 16, which may be what you were seeing. He's a unique case. First of all, when he was made I had neither Battlerager nor Howler -- he's a Planewalker. PW has no CHA penalty.
I put in 14 points pre-race modifications. 14?! I'm a dwarf starting as a bard. 13 is the absolute minimum you can put in, yielding a starting stat of 11 before subrace modifications. In my case after subrace modifications I had 12. At level 10 of RDD that goes to 14. After killing Asmodeus on level 9 of Hells that goes to 16. I sure didn't spend any points on charisma -- it's a totally unimportant stat. Your naked CHA isn't even close to 16 with a Battlerager.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that people were putting more bard levels in or spending points on charisma just to do bard spells. Nobody is doing that.
With regards to hit points, you're right that outside of Hells with decent equipment, hardly anything hurts you at all, so why bother with more hp. In Hells (down a few levels) my experience is that you take plenty of damage. Less than many other builds, but it's still a lot. My logs from Cania show him taking physical damage from almost every mob not to mention a lot of other types. You lose 40% of your physical immunity down there. In Nessus Barbezus were doing an average of 89 points of physical damage per hit (fortunately they don't hit often). I'll agree that EDR feats don't seem worth it on this build, butI wouldn't say "physical damage is no issue" since my combat logs say it ain't so for any of our team (in the bottom three levels at least). Even so rolling a 1 on a save vs. instant-death from an Osyluth or Pit Fiend killed him far more than taking damage from anything.
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Post by ekstroem on Apr 9, 2007 20:42:43 GMT
Screenshot from a lovely day in Dis.
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Post by gruntgruntson on Apr 10, 2007 1:02:15 GMT
I took that exact same pic, will post when i find it!
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on Apr 19, 2007 3:57:24 GMT
Trying to plan a version of this, using arctic dwarf and dachy blood for dodge (if it works, then can keep dex at 6) saves at 60 should be 64 65 64 using luck/legendary luck, reflex/legendary/epic, epic fort, stats starting will be 16(18) 8(6) 17(20) 10 8 11(9)
feat wise I'll have a pre-20 and an epic feat, debating if it's worth going for a 2nd weapon (light flail, crit sucks, won't take improved critical, but will have nice damage from DB weapon, an 2nd damage type, be nice against crit immunes) with primary weapon scimitar.
Any alternate suggestions for those 2 feats? can't bump a stat by 2 due one being pre-20, int is 10 starting so no expertiese, 5 more will and 2 fort (or just one of the 2 and 20 hp) might not be as good as a 2nd choice in weapons.
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Post by iamaqt on Apr 19, 2007 13:46:26 GMT
Wow! Thanks Yomi. I have this build up to lvl 43, and she is doing quite well. I have done Sssith 2 times and have yet to go through a whole heal pack. I appreciate you taking the time to list out your gear selection. I have a hard time deciding what equiptment to use and usually have a lot of unecessary overlap of immunes/coverage. And, since this is my first Tank build, I am not a familiar with the armor and shield selections as well. I will print this off and keep with the rest of my notes. Thanks again for a terrific build and all the input. -qt
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Post by dodrudon on Apr 20, 2007 23:01:06 GMT
Why does this build have 8 levels of bard?
I designed a similar build for my friend, with Arctic Dwarf as well.
Bard 5/RDD 6/DD 9/RDD 4/DD 15/Bard 1 Starting Stats: Str 17 -> 19 Dex 8 ->6 Con 18 ->19 Wis 8 Int 10 Cha 11 ->9
Pre-Epic Feats: Luck of Heros Toughness Blindfight Weapon Focus Improved Critical Lightning Reflexes Iron Will
Epic Feats: Epic Reflexes Epic Fort EDR x3 Armor Skin Epic Weapon Focus Great Strength x2 Epic Prowess
LL Feats: Legendary Luck Legendary Fort Legendary Will Great Strength x4
No Dodge (gotten another way) means not needing 13 dex means more starting points to spend and one more feat.
The first skill point at 4 goes towards Con.
Saves end up at 60 (for reflex), 63 for will, and 62 for fort. Not bad, but not excellent. Dump into UMD, Tumble, at L40. Discipline up to 30 by L40.
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