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Post by Lythe Featherblade on Apr 21, 2007 0:39:52 GMT
Looking at the feat list, you're missing the pre-20 fortitude feat to get legendary fortitude if 60 63 62 is passable for saves, what do you suggest as decent, and what as excellent?
My build is the modified, 7bard 15RDD 18DD for the extra 1str and 1feat, final saves 64 65 64
The feat list I have planned is this: Pre epic: Luck of heroes Dodge (blood) toughness blindfighting lightning reflex weapon focus improved critical (free feat)
Epic Epic weapon focus epic reflex Great str 1-4 armor skin epic prowess epic will (free feat)
LL Legendary luck legendary reflexes Great Str 5-9 Final str with gear will be 68, I started out 18 str 20 con, if you start out 19 str 19 con you can drop will save by 2 (iron will instead of epic will) and get 2 more str without dropping con (1 great con and great str 10)
If you go 6 bard 4 RDD 10DD pre-epic you'll get 1 better AB than 5 bard 6rdd 9dd
Still trying to figure out if a 2nd weapon type is worth it with my 2 free feats. Few people seem to go with epic damage reduction on DD builds it seems, could always squeeze those in at a cost of 2 str, but may not be worth it.
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Post by dodrudon on Apr 21, 2007 1:53:49 GMT
Hmm, with the emphasis on saves in Hell, it seems tossing EDR for saves might be a good idea. And you're right, I forgot about the AB thing.
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Post by mloki on May 30, 2007 19:58:48 GMT
Was considering making a warchanter when I saw this build. Using similiar stats you could easily take Bard to 12 and get 2 of the Chants at 40th. The loss of DR is not significant when you consider the +16 Enhancement bonus to you and your allies that you will gain. Also since this build is not reliant on spells the Death of Magic chant can only help. Final Levels at 40th would be; Bard 12th Chant of Battle (Instruments of Faith). RDD 10th DD 18th (38th at 60) Chant of Countering (Death of Magic). Perhaps bringing CHA up a few points you can get some basic buffs out of the build not to mention a decent Bard Song. (30th level at 40) Thanks for the help on my new TinChanter. MLoki The Tin Can: 22 DD/8 BRD/10 RDDI've been toying around with the idea behind this build for some time and am currently in the process of leveling a toon based on the following build. The main idea was to have a strength tank that could take awful amount of hits and have good elemental immunities. Base race dwarf, subrace arctic dwarf. Starting abilities:Ability | Points | Race | Subrace | Starting value | Str | 16 | | +2 | 18 | Dex | 13 | | -2 | 11 | Con | 15 | +2 | +1 | 18 | Int | 10 | | | 10 | Wis | 8 | | | 8 | Cha | 13 | -2 | -2 | 9 |
Level Progression: 5 Bard/4 RDD/1 Bard/10 DD/6 RDD/1 Bard/10 DD/1 Bard/2 DD You need to change alignment a few times when going back and forth between bard and DD All stat increases into str. Pre-epic feats: Toughness (should be taken before level 10) Dodge (should be taken as starting feat) Weapon Focus Improved critical Blind fight Lightning reflexes Iron Will Epic feats (* should be taken as DD epic feats): * Armor Skin * Epic Weapon Focus * Epic Prowess Great Strength 1-5 Great Constitution 1-2 Legendary Feats: (7 of the following) Great Strength 6-10 Epic Will Epic Fort [possibly leave this one out] Epic Reflexes Skill points: Get 8 lore by level 5. Max tumble on bard levels (for a total of 40 points at level 37) and put 32 point into UMD at level 37 to be able to use all scrolls. Discipline should be maxed on DD levels after 38 but you will lack skill points to get it maxed until somewhere in LLs. If you fancy dwarven drinking songs then put 12 points into perform - that will net you +1 to all saves and +1 attack. Pros: - High physical immunity+resist (should be able to reach 80% physical immunity + 15/ physical resist)
- Fire immunity
- 25% cold immunity
- High AC (for a str build ~ around 120+)
- Can use scrolls
- With the right equipment this toon can have 80% physical, fire immunity, 100% elec, 100% cold, 100% acid and 75% sonic immunity (or variations hereof - possibly include 25% magical with the right UR rings)
- Decent fort and will saves
Cons:- Low number of skill points
- Not fantastic damage output
- Reflex saves (but hey - it's a tin can)
Ability increases and feats will give you +38 strength, +4 constitution, +2 int, +2 cha and +6 AC (draconic armor and armor skin) I decided to go with battleaxe for this build as dwarven battleaxe would require an extra feat (exotic weapons). I'm not sure if battleaxe is the best pick as I can't remember the stats on the Dusty battleaxe but at least I stick with the classical dwarven image. Alternative build idea:Use Battlerager: +4 str, +3 con, -2 int, -3 cha, feats: dodge, toughness. You will loose the cold immunity but will free up two feats and not need to start putting points into dex to get dodge at level 1. With the build below you will only need great strength 1-9 (freeing up an extra feats). The 3 additional feats (2 pre-epic) could be used for exotic weapon feat, luck-of-heroes, and either epic damage reduction I or epic fort. Ability | Points | Race | Subrace | Starting value | Str | 17 | | +4 | 21 | Dex | 8 | | | 8 | Con | 15 | +2 | +3 | 20 | Int | 12 | | -2 | 10 | Wis | 8 | | | 8 | Cha | 13 | -2 | -3 | 8 |
Dwarven Warchanter Quasiclass ====================== Requirements: Must have 10 levels of bard, 16 levels of dwarven defender, Skill Focus (intimidate), and Weapon Focus (mace OR light hammer OR heavy flail) before level 28. Benefits: -On achieving Dwarven Warchanter status at level 26 or 27, the Warchanter receives Weapon Specialization in the weapon he has focus in. -The Dwarven Warchanter adds half his dwarven defender level (including legendary levels if control class is dwarven defender) to his bard level for Bard Song and Curse Song. ----- Upon achieving level 40, the Dwarven Warchanter may receive certain Chants which replicate epic spells. If he has at least 12 levels of bard, he receives the Chant of Battle (Instruments of Faith). If he has at least 18 levels of dwarven defender, he receives the Chant of Countering (Death of Magic).
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Post by alandrian on Jun 17, 2007 10:55:33 GMT
To UMD or not? This build can use scrolls but it wonder if you should skill umd anyway to use the divine scrolls too. But as it is low on skillpoints anyway, it might be better to skip it. Any ideas about that?
Free feat? I wonder what i should take at level 18. Kandidates are Expertise, Knockdown or Fortitude+2. Guess in LL no mob can be knocked down and the 5ac from Expertise will just hurt your ab. Maybe any other ideas or a feat i completely forgot (Luck of heros, Dodge, thoughness, Blindfight, reflex+2, will+2, weaponfocus, imp. crit are already in).
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Post by gruntgruntson on Jun 17, 2007 17:42:56 GMT
To UMD or not? This build can use scrolls but it wonder if you should skill umd anyway to use the divine scrolls too. But as it is low on skillpoints anyway, it might be better to skip it. Any ideas about that? I'd say stick with the arcane scrolls. Depends where you would otherwise put the skill points. And I beleive UMD overrides natural scroll-reading ability (A lvl 1/1 wiz/rogue with 4 UMD will struggle to read scrolls). I hear that Knockdown is still useful in LL/Hells, but you have to be good. Expertise (+5 AC, -5 AB) can be very useful when the mobs are battering you. Survive long enough for the mages to do the damage. The Tin Can is not a Damage-Dealer, although it has reasonable attack stats. It is a damage-soaker. +5 AB helps this role. If you want a damage dealer, the Dwarf of Steel (with WM levels) might be a better option. All is "IMHO". My Tin Can is Min tagged with no real problems (despite his pre-LL save-feats Will save). I really enjoy a STR_tank reading scrolls. Mind Blank, Stone-To-Flesh, Gust, Mords, Keen, BBoD, and many, many more! Do you really need Divine scrolls as well?
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Post by Yomi on Jun 17, 2007 19:41:40 GMT
I made a Tin Can and found at level 37 after the last bard level, without having spent any points in UMD, that I was unable to use GS scrolls. It plain didn't let me use them. That character got deleted -- being able to reading scrolls as a tank in Hells is huge. You can also do your own mindblank in Illithids, Keen your own slashing weapon, and Black Blades will help you in a lot of places.
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Post by alandrian on Jun 18, 2007 13:14:38 GMT
Yes arcaine should be enough mostly. Just some spells like GS seems not to work. Not sure how often i would need GS as a tank but it might be a wipesaver. On the other hand i need 10 int to have enought skillpoints in Disc (63), Tumble (40) and UMD (29). And that would lower dex then which means 1 less reflex.
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Post by ekstroem on Jun 18, 2007 13:37:52 GMT
On the other hand i need 10 int to have enought skillpoints in Disc (63), Tumble (40) and UMD (29). And that would lower dex then which means 1 less reflex. I'd max UMD to 43. 29 is not enough to be sure for the scrolls to fire and with hell penalties it's nice to have more than the needed skill level if you want to use a scroll and your bard song has run out. Cheers, Claus
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Post by alandrian on Jun 18, 2007 14:34:46 GMT
Thanks for the hint. I had complete forgot about that. On the other hand looking at the penalties of 18 in nessus, even 43 might not be enough to be really sure to get you gs off. Dont want to tickle Murpheys law here . I guess it will be even more risky for demis.
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Post by Yomi on Jun 27, 2007 6:49:31 GMT
The latest update: ( here): Means most Tin Cans will now have 4 less AC than they did before, and can only get that AC back by using the Strongheart amulet (or 1 closer by using a BUR amulet that has +17, and at least some BUR amulets have no natural armor bonus). Instead of being 1-2 AC higher than an RDD build without BURs, it's now 2-3 lower.
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Post by nicnik on Jun 27, 2007 14:35:36 GMT
why did they do that? I dont see the reason. you pick rdd for 4 ac and fire immune. why not remove fire immune too?
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Post by chainlink on Jun 27, 2007 14:50:18 GMT
Probably because DD''s get a colossal damage immunity based on Str and RDD''s get at best 9 damage reduction from three feats. I suspect its a balancing measure.
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Post by fragment on Jul 5, 2007 8:35:13 GMT
Do NOT go warchanter with this build. You'll lose the ability to use the crit immune stance.
Just a heads-up, regards.
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Post by darc on Jul 20, 2007 4:57:22 GMT
Here are the details for a minor update of the build which uses the new legendary saves and uses a slightly different class composition to get one extra AC and one free feat (at the cost of reducing the DD damage reduction by 3 How did you get Toughness for DD? I assume you used Dachy Blood for Dodge (I believe I read an earlier post that you can do this?)
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Post by ekstroem on Jul 20, 2007 8:55:28 GMT
Here are the details for a minor update of the build which uses the new legendary saves and uses a slightly different class composition to get one extra AC and one free feat (at the cost of reducing the DD damage reduction by 3 How did you get Toughness for DD? I assume you used Dachy Blood for Dodge (I believe I read an earlier post that you can do this?) I used Battlerager for the modified version and Battlerager has toughness and dodge. Drinking dragon blood might give you the dodge feat for free if you have a open subrace. If you're not using Battlerager you'll need to tweak the updated version a bit. Maybe increasing INT for parry skill would be a good idea with the recent chang to parry skill. I'm thinking about updating the build but I wont until then new feat/skill updates are out. Cheers, Claus
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