the Black Knight - Sorc 17 / BG 22 / Monk 1

[azrael]

Prismatic has -1 to int so I just wanted to make sure I had at least 10 int. I had an extra stat point at creation and just stuck it in intelligence, why I can't remember except that I dont think it really mattered if I put the odd point in Int, dex or wis, no gain either way.

edit - ah i just remembered, it was for an extra skill point at creation, before the -1 penalty was applied for the subrace.
Also it makes the build come out the same for the blue half dragon race, as they have -2 Int.

edit - in answer to your question about skills, i find it very helpful to max concentration, along with discipline, and you want 40 tumble too, so I wanted 3 skill points per level.

[Yomi]

Dragonblooded is an alternate choice for subrace for this build, though is pretty weak for a UR subrace. What you get is the ability to have an 18 STR, CON, and CHA at start, -2 to wis instead of dex (so end result vs. the example is +1 reflex save, -1 will save, +2 fort save, and +120 hitpoints). You don't get any feats or other plusses like striding or elemental immunity however. You in fact lose a feat because you're required to be a half-elf, as well as losing a skill point per level. I chose a 10 INT to start and it's not possible to max discipline until sometime in the 40s, much less find any points for concentration. I dropped divine shield. The new BUR Hound Archon is far superior, with significantly more stats, SR 10+level, and letting you choose human or dwarf.

I just got mine to level 43, and it is fun to play, and seems to be a solid str tank build. I would prefer more conceal and higher AC, though Illithid tag helps a lot with the latter (AC 117 with penumbrium plate and Pentavite Shield and +15 amulet). He was able to tank pretty well in Illithids pre-tag (111 AC, 25% conceal) except for the tube room, where the golems did unmentionable acts upon him and he still has trouble sitting down. The extra AC should help next time, and a magic ring would make a lot of the pain go away. The illithid items belt of bestial resistance and amulet of adaptation are nice for the build also, with the former giving +12 to str and con as well as damage reduction and a discipline boost.

Tensers duration is starting to be reasonable, though my main problem is it dropping in the middle of a big fight, then being unable to put it back up due to concentration failure when they all slam me as soon as I try to cast. Damage is good, though isn't really any higher than a good dexer (who's also much harder for the monsters to hit back). Divine might is a nice plus however.

I debated weapons, with dwarven waraxe, warhammer, and scimitar being some of my considerations. The warhammer would have been nice except I wouldn't be able to keen it. I decided to be traditional and chose scimitar.

The only interesting spell choice I made was to choose stone to flesh for my third level 6 spell. That may come in handy on desert trips, though scrolls work fine also and I won't have a lot of the spells. But nothing else jumped out at me as very interesting.

I believe I will skip LL enchant. With tensers up the ab will already be maxed, and as you pointed out, I would likely prefer to take another toon somewhere where they use non-mord breaches like beholders (no issues in desert, ssith, illithids, maze, or DB where tehy use mord if anything). With a bard along the undispellable ab will be very high (at level 40 a typical 35/4/1 bard will be giving everyone +4 undispellable extra ab, rising to +6 later). I may get an extra save feat instead.

[azrael]

sti15 said:

I just got mine to level 43, and it is fun to play, and seems to be a solid str tank build. I would prefer more conceal and higher AC,

I've also found this build to be bit fragile for a tank, it definitely helps to have your physical immunities as high as you can and try to have 20 resist to all physical damage types and at least 10 to all exotics too. Energy buffer takes care of elemental types, just make sure it doesnt run out. I use a ygrettes ammy for 20 resist to all physical, a parsons preserver or ecto for exotic resists and I have at least 45% immunity to all physical types, sometimes I can have 65% physical immunites depending on what rings i'm wearing.

sti15 said:

Tensers duration is starting to be reasonable, though my main problem is it dropping in the middle of a big fight, then being unable to put it back up due to concentration failure when they all slam me as soon as I try to cast. Damage is good, though isn't really any higher than a good dexer (who's also much harder for the monsters to hit back). Divine might is a nice plus however.

I was planning on just putting 20 or so points in concentration, but I ended up maxing it because it is aggravating rebuffing in combat when youre getting hit, maybe with that spare feat you have you could take skill focus concentration? Your saves should be pretty good anyway (at least 60).

I find that I do substantially more damage than my dexer wm. With damage shields, deaths kiss, flame weapon, divine might and seven attacks I kill stuff much faster than my dexer (edit - though my dexer doesnt dual wield, so that may be why) You dont see a lot of big numbers (crits around 100-200), but you make up for it with lots of attacks and extra damage from buffs. (another edit - If youre only lvl 43 you wont have the extra attacks yet, that really helps your overall damage output)

sti15 said:

I believe I will skip LL enchant.

I like having the +14, if just for when i bring this toon in as a party buffer, but I agree that it really isnt that useful as you are usually at the cap anyway.

[Yomi]

Thanks for feedback.

azrael said:

I've also found this build to be bit fragile for a tank, it definitely helps to have your physical immunities as high as you can and try to have 20 resist to all physical damage types and at least 10 to all exotics too. Energy buffer takes care of elemental types, just make sure it doesnt run out. I use a ygrettes ammy for 20 resist to all physical, a parsons preserver or ecto for exotic resists and I have at least 45% immunity to all physical types, sometimes I can have 65% physical immunites depending on what rings i'm wearing.

It took a little getting used to at first, playing with different equipment, watching what hurt/killed me, changing around and seeing what came next, etc. After a few iterations he was able to survive OK using Immo plate, clasps of forewarned, Parsons, and DR 15/- physical from Arakin's belt (with shields able to bring this to 25/- of one type interchangeably in most areas). That was 45-50% physical and DR 15/- with 25/- to one type. Overall DR 20/- phusical seems pretty rare, but 10/- or 15/- is quite doable. Energy Buffer is helpful and gets much longer life with levels (40/- max 1000 at level 41, 59/- max 2900 at level 60).

I have to say that I was feeling a little impressed with the scripters on occasion. It was like the mobs looked at me and said "Hey guys, look! This guy popped out his harm immune for a little more AC. Let's have a bit 'o fun!" OK, that's fixed and .. ack! implode shield! "Gee, this anhilator isn't bad at all, but he sure is glowing brightly blue, wonder what... <crispy sound>... hmm, maybe I should switch in yet another ring just as soon as that 'Respawn' gets off my screen..." Better / tagged equipment solves a lot of these swapping issues.

I was planning on just putting 20 or so points in concentration, but I ended up maxing it because it is aggravating rebuffing in combat when youre getting hit, maybe with that spare feat you have you could take skill focus concentration? Your saves should be pretty good anyway (at least 60).

Indeed, I will gave that some thought. I'll likely put it off to see how much it's bothering me later as well as seeing what the Hells might bring.

I find that I do substantially more damage than my dexer wm. With damage shields, deaths kiss, flame weapon, divine might and seven attacks I kill stuff much faster than my dexer

Good point on damage shields (soloing drowned city I find the sword guys are dead or close to it by the time I've finished killing off the archers). The extra tensers attacks haven't kicked in yet, and of course that'll help, as will the rapid str bonuses of LL's and great str feats combined. The self-buffing ability is great for those of us who haven't started a second account yet.

[cathedralmaster]

I was wondering if Sorc 16/BG 23/ Monk 1 would be a better combo? You'd lose Greater Sanctuary but gain an extra feat. Is Greater Sanctuary really that important?

Opps, was thinking of the three off of 20 instead of 10. My bad.

[Cimion]

I have never made a str/caster of any kind so I don't know if this actually works, but with a mord ring and high SR you shouldn't get dispelled nearly as often from spell breach and dispel. Although globe of invulnerability doesn't actually make you immune to spell breach like it should so maybe SR won't work either.

If SR does work then I would make this build with Rakshasa, even thought I have been dreaming of making a Prismatic anything for the immunities since with ele shield you are already 75% immune to cold a fire, not a bad start. I can see myself getting really annoyed with dispel and breach, so Rakshasa sounds like a better option IMO.

Cimion

[cathedralmaster]

cimion said:

I have never made a str/caster of any kind so I don't know if this actually works, but with a mord ring and high SR you shouldn't get dispelled nearly as often from spell breach and dispel.

Spell breach ignores Sr and your stats aren't as good with Rakshasa.

[sabregirl]

Well I have a bane knight that's similar to this except I took 18 sorc and changed some feats around. I've found the 9th level bigsbies to be a big help as the lower level ones more often fail the grapple check and bigsbies against low SR critters seems to be one of the main appeals of the quasi-class.

I used Rakshasa as my subrace, warhammer as weapon (taking great SF transmutation), combat casting, divine shield and might. Consequently her strength is relatively low but she doesn't have too much trouble hitting anything with a fully buffed AB of about 67 at lvl 55 (that's combat log AB - char sheet says 83 . . . ) I guess I find her to be considerably more "squishy" than I expected although premonition seems to help some but she does big damage especially with divine might and damage shields.

-S

[webber]

Why waste two feats on power attack and cleave when your monk level gives you cleave anyways? Getting rid of the two may help your aforementioned feat problem.

[cathedralmaster]

webber said:

Why waste two feats on power attack and cleave when your monk level gives you cleave anyways? Getting rid of the two may help your aforementioned feat problem.

You need power attack to take cleave, and you need cleave to be able to take levels in blackguard.

[arielt]

webber said:

Why waste two feats on power attack and cleave when your monk level gives you cleave anyways? Getting rid of the two may help your aforementioned feat problem.

The problem with that, is you need monk at the very end for a tumble dump. That extra AC is worth as much as an epic feat. Taking 2 monk levels instead has the issue of making you lose both a Sneak Attack dice and a Blackguard Epic Feat.

[webber]

I actually was referring to taking a monk level early on to save feats. The sneak attack die wouldn't really be worth it, and I'd say two pre-epic feats > epic prowess. And you get deflect arrow

[arielt]

A) Deflect arrow doesn't work unless you have a hand free, sadly.

B) Actually, I'm inclined to say Epic Prowess is probably more useful as this build splits points between STR and CHA and is therefore hurting in the AB department more than most that just pump STR or DEX.

[azrael]

arielt said:

A) is therefore hurting in the AB department more than most that just pump STR or DEX.

While its true that this builds base ab is low, with a final str of 58-60 (including the +12 from items) and ab boosting spells your ab should always be at the +20 cap so it actually has pretty good ab. I think defense/hp is whats lacking the most, especially when you're taking kickback and have 7 attacks per round ( and also possibly flame and deaths kiss, which also count as additional attacks as far as kickback is concerned) and not that many hp.

[azrael]

I just remembered why i didnt take a monk level early. It would cost you a point of base ab, as well as losing the extra sneak, a bonus feat and also a caster level (less duration and you have to wait another level for the extra tensers attack). So you lose a bonus epic feat and a point of ab to gain 2 pre epic feat. Not worth it IMO because I normally happily spend 2 epic feats for 1 ab.