The Good Shepherd (Pal 4 Ftr4 Rog 32)

[unnone]

Pros: Rogue with ESF Disable, ESF Search, ESF Discipline, SC5, Epic Dodge, 66 Dex geared, 16 base Con, 16 BAB giving 4 attacks, saves 65/90/65, no xp penalty (except for 2 levelsin the mid 20s, boo hoo).

Cons: No dual wield. No 18-20 weapon choice if you're a halfling. No Wm crits. Gr Dex 9 not taken to gain ESFs. I crammed everything I could into this build. You can take dual wield, but it comes at a price (see bottom)

Races: The best starting dex I had was with Atomie, so I designed around that race. I also felt guilty about reading the book and never using it. Atomie gives me 2 dex more than my other builds, no need for a lev ring except in illithids(YAY!), halfling small stature bonus, and wings that should be on no male character.

Other races I considered, and reasons for considering them:

Githyanki: Extra feat from being human, the 2 extra dex turn into 2 con. This allows all dual wielding feats to fit into the build easier. Cha bonus is lower. Dex is lower. Yadda yadda. Sr. And you're not living in fear of a can of bugspray.

Pixie: Additional feat, SR, blah blah blah. Bought by lower Hp and dex, and looking like something that should fly into a bugzapper.

Wishlist races for this build:
Planewalker, Half Kyton, Eryines, Half Fiend, Radiance Genasi

For all those with those URs and BURs, feel free to revamp the build. If you can't revamp it yourself, give me the BUR book, and I'll rebuild it for you in exchange ^_-


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The Good Shepherd

Atomie Stats (char gen in parens)
Str: 6 (6) - 0 pnts
Con: 16 (16) - 10 pnts
Dex: 23 (20) - 16 pnts
Int: 10 (8) - 0 pnts
Wis: 6 (8) - 0 pnts
Cha: 14 (12) - 4 pnts

Alignment: Lawful Good until level 6, then change to whatever you want.

All Statups go into Dex. Big surprise

Atomie: (Fearless, Good Aim, Lucky, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Move Silently, Small Stature, Speaks Sylvan)
01: Rogue(1): Luck of Heros
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Paladin(1): Weapon Focus: Mace
04: Paladin(2): DEX+1, {Smite Evil}, (DEX=24)
05: Paladin(3)
06: Paladin(4): Weapon Finesse
07: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I}
08: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
09: Rogue(5): Blind Fight
10: Rogue(6)
11: Rogue(7)
12: Rogue(8): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Mace, (DEX=26)
13: Rogue(9)
14: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
15: Rogue(11): Toughness
16: Rogue(12): DEX+1, (DEX=27)
17: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
18: Rogue(14): Iron Will
19: Rogue(15)
20: Rogue(16): DEX+1, Slippery Mind, (DEX=28)
21: Fighter(1): Great Dexterity I, Epic Weapon Focus: Mace, (DEX=29)
22: Fighter(2): Epic Prowess
23: Fighter(3)
24: Rogue(17): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=31)
25: Rogue(18)
26: Rogue(19): Epic Skill Focus: Disable Trap
27: Rogue(20): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=32)
28: Rogue(21): DEX+1, (DEX=33)
29: Rogue(22)
30: Rogue(23): Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=34)
31: Rogue(24): Epic Dodge
32: Rogue(25): DEX+1, (DEX=35)
33: Rogue(26): Self Concealment I
34: Rogue(27)
35: Rogue(28): Self Concealment II
36: Rogue(29): DEX+1, Self Concealment III, (DEX=36)
37: Rogue(30)
38: Rogue(31)
39: Rogue(32): Self Concealment IV, Self Concealment V
40: Fighter(4): DEX+1, Armor Skin, (DEX=37)

LLs:
42: Legendary Will
45: Legendary Luck
48: ESF Search
51: ESF Discipline
54: Great Dex V
57: Great Dex VI
60: Great Dex VII


Final Dex:66 [23 + 7 (Gr Dex) + 20 (Epic + LL) + 12 Gear +4 LL's]
(thanks for the heads up, DF)

Saves: F/R/W
Rog 16: 5 /10/ 5
Pal 4: 4 / 1/ 1
Stats: 3 /28/-2
(+41) 41 /41/41
Loh,LL 4 / 4 / 4
I, LWill 0 / 0 / 9
26 Cha 8 / 8 / 8

Final Geared saves at 60:
65/ Utter Insanity / 65.

Note that these numbers involve +12 to WIS, CON, DEX and CHA, which can be a pain in the butt at times. Bring Sorcerors cookies to cast maximized Eagles on you. Date ugly people so they make your Charisma higher while standing next to them.


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Variants:
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DUAL WIELD VARIANT
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To get a dual wield version, you need to squeeze out 3 feats. It can be done, but at a cost. Replacing 3 paladin levels pre-20 with a fighter level gives you an extra feat and helps your fort save, but you have lost an epic fighter feat and immunity to fear (shrug) by doing so, since you gain 2 pre epicfighter feat and lose one epic fighter feat (extra feat at level 1 fighter). Now you have to squeeze 2 more feats out of somewhere, and it's going to hurt. Any more fighter levels cost you a feat from rogue levels. You've already lost either armor skin or epic prowess with the shift, and now have to choose to lose something along the lines of ESF:Disc, Slippery Mind, a couple gr dex, or Legendary Luck. Oh, and you pick up an XP penalty. Woo hoo. Below is the least painful dual wield variant I could come up with.

Atomie: (Fearless, Good Aim, Lucky, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Move Silently, Small Stature, Speaks Sylvan)
01: Rogue(1): Luck of Heros
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Paladin(1): Weapon Focus
04: Paladin(2): DEX+1, {Smite Evil}, (DEX=24)
05: Fighter(1): Ambidexterity
06: Fighter(2): Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting
07: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I}
08: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
09: Rogue(5): Blind Fight
10: Rogue(6)
11: Rogue(7)
12: Rogue(8): DEX+1, Improved Critical, (DEX=26)
13: Rogue(9)
14: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
15: Rogue(11): Toughness
16: Rogue(12): DEX+1, (DEX=27)
17: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
18: Rogue(14): Iron Will
19: Rogue(15)
20: Rogue(16): DEX+1, Slippery Mind, (DEX=28)
21: Fighter(3): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=29)
22: Fighter(4): Epic Weapon Focus
23: Fighter(5)
24: Rogue(17): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=31)
25: Rogue(18)
26: Rogue(19): Epic Skill Focus: Disable Trap
27: Rogue(20): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=32)
28: Rogue(21): DEX+1, (DEX=33)
29: Rogue(22)
30: Rogue(23): Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=34)
31: Rogue(24): Epic Dodge
32: Rogue(25): DEX+1, (DEX=35)
33: Rogue(26): Self Concealment I
34: Rogue(27)
35: Rogue(28): Self Concealment II
36: Rogue(29): DEX+1, Self Concealment III, (DEX=36)
37: Rogue(30)
38: Rogue(31)
39: Rogue(32): Self Concealment IV, Self Concealment V
40: Fighter(6): DEX+1, Epic Prowess, (DEX=37)

Legendary Levels:
42: Legendary Will
45: Legendary Luck
48: ESF Search
51: ESF Discipline, just in time for Thids
54: Armor Skin
57: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (probably shift this with Epic Prowess..It was on my chopping list, thus being so late in the build)
60: Gr Dex V (yeah, only GD 5)

Legendary Will, Gr Dex 5, ESF Search are fixed without a doubt in this build. This leaves you with choosing 4 from: Gr Dex 6-7, ESF Disc, Legendary Luck, Armor Skin, and Improved 2 wpn fighting.

Improved 2wpn fighting seems necessary in this variation. Why have a dual wielder without having improved 2wpn?

If I wasn't dual wielding, I'd ditch armor skin. For a dual wield build, Armor Skin seems almost necessary, since you do not have monk AC backing you up.

ESF Disc would help to prevent many nastinesses from being perpetrated upon both you and your corpse. It would help to avoid being part of the hiphop culture in Illithids, and being abused so often in the hells.

Legendary Luck helps to prevent other nastinesses from being perpetrated upon you. Dropping this removes your charisma buffer, putting you down to 62/ infinity / 62 for saves while wearing max'd cha gear. To keep saves in the 60's, you now need at least +8 cha from some source.

2 more dex is nice, and gives another point of AC and AB. We're already dropping 2 points of AB by dual wielding. This changes it to 3 points of AB. However, that one point of AB would come at a grim price.

I think my decision would be to drop 2 Gr Dex, losing the additional point of AB, leaving me at 60 Dex. BAB = 26+25 (gdex) + 4 (EWF, Eprow, Wfoc) + 14 (gmw) = 69, up to 75 fully buffed under bard song, etc, but dropping back to 73 when dual wielding, and losing 16 ac.
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Build Notes:
I've never had a rogue on HG, so I decided to build one. After seeing the difference in performance with a char with SC, one with Epic Dodge, and one with SC and ED, I knew I wanted my rogue to have both. I also needed some extra feats. Finally, I knew that I'd need some way to boost saves - Will saves are hard to raise up for rogue builds. With that checklist in mind, I built the char.

I knew I'd need at least two legendary save feats for this char. GDex 10, SC 5, two ESFs, EWF, EDodge, and Eprowess, LLuck, and LWill. totalled to 22 feats, so I needed major bonus feats. Pure rogue would take me to 19 feats - not enough. Paladin would give a hefty boost to saves, much greater than any single feat, so boom, 1 paladin level, down to 18 feats.

Slapping in 4 levels of fighter gave me 3 feats. Sadly, fighter feats are mostly combat based, so initally put those levels low out of habit to max saves, and tried to come up with a dual wield build.

I kept coming up with some hard cuts - dual wield, ESF Disc, Luck saves, Slippery Mind? Finally, I ditched the dual wield in favor of building a single weapon variant. When doing this, I realized I had tons of low feats, but I was still starved up high. Moving the 4 fighter levels out of the bottom gave me 3 more epic feats and cost me an AB and a point or two on saves, which I bought back with epic prowess.

After I finished the single wield, then modified that to get a dual wield version, which I don't think will have enough survivability in legendary areas because of its lack of class based AC bonuses and relatively low concealment. 50% SC and epic dodge without underlying soak just won't compensate for being hit on a 2.

[bort]

Ghostwise is 10% conceal, not Self Conceal I (they don't stack).
Skulk on the other hand does give Self Conceal I.

[unnone]

You are right. My error. Edited.

[chainlink]

No biggie but I didn't think you could choose lawful good as a starting alignment if you're a rogue? Also I'd take the four Ftr levels pre-epic and get yourslelf +1 ab at minimal cost to the build, will affect your saves slightly but I doubt that this will be an issue.

[gruntgruntson]

Rogue has no alignment restrictions.

[darkfyre]

Rogue control calss also gives 1 dex every 5 levels in LL.

so the build will have 4 more dex overall at 60th

I dont really see the need for ESF discipline as you can effectively reach 93 with gear....

'Darkfyre

[chainlink]

And the Hells bump that down by a lot so the deeper you go the more likely you are to end up holding a pile of junk in your hand at an inopportune moment. ESF discipline is very handy for non Str builds.

[unnone]

Anyone have a recommendation for a weapon for an atomie single wielding? I'm pretty much down to handax, dagger, shortsword, and mace for choices. I'm leaning towards mace. I'm only concerned about the keen issue.

Now that I think about it, most of my damage is going to be elemental anyway unless I can sneak attack it. I guess the underlying damage type doesn't mean as much as it would to a str tank, so I should go for something small or tiny that's a slashing weapon, to get as much keen as possible. Anything wrong with that logic?

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Chainlink - If I took the 4 fighter levels pre epic, I'd gain a couple points save and 1 AB... which wouldn't make up for the 3 AB and 2 AC I would lose because I'd suddenly gain 3 pre-epic feats and lose 3 epics. The fighter levels are taken post-20 to give me 3 addition epic feats - armor skin, EWF,
and E-prowess.
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Darkfyre, you're right. I forgot all about the Rogue CC dex bonus. Editing the post to reflect that. Woo hoo. 2 more AB. I took ESF to help with both lower layers in the hells and to loosen up gear selection a bit.

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While running this build through the test chamber last night, I was able to pick epic dodge at level 26. I don't think Atari could document a box of toothpicks properly. That means both your ESFs can come in later levels, when they're really needed. Does anyone know the actual game engine requirements for Epic Dodge?

[darkfyre]

Epic Dodge - Dex 25, Improved Evasion, and Defensive Roll, Tumble 30 ( Not sure on this number)

'Darkfyre

[unnone]

It's gotta be lower than tumble 30, because I took it at level 26, and hadn't maxed tumble out at all. I guess I'll play with that sometime in the testing chamber.

[Lythe Featherblade]

I heard a while back that crits and sneaks don't stack, does anyone know for sure? Be interesting to know which applies when both come into play, this build's main drawbacks being low damage.

To use an 18-20 weapon on a halfling easy enough to drop epic prowess for exotic weapon proficiency, I'd pick whip over kukri for the 3 exotic damages on the dustybone weapon (vs 1 exotic and piercing). for a 19-20 weapon light hammer might be a good choice.

[unnone]

From my understanding, sneak damage gets added on after crit damage, so the formula sort of looks like this: ( [normal damage] * crit multiple ) + sneak damage.

I think my AB is going to be in the low 70's. BAB = 26, +27 from 64 dex, +4 (EWF, WF, EProw), +14 from GMW, +1 from small stature = 72, up to 78 fully buffed. Is 71 good enough? I'm paranoid about being able to hit after my first few HG builds were having extreme difficulty hitting things.

Thinking about it, crits normally do way more than their multiplier over base. Exotic proficiency would extend my range from 15-20 to 12-20, which is a very large increase in crit percentage. I think I have to agree with dropping Eprowess for Exotic proficiency, especially since I'm sitting in the 60+ stat range. Whips, flails, scimitars, and rapiers are 2 handed weapons for halflings, so I'd have to go with kukri. Ugh. I'm not sure I want to step into the Kukri Acquisition market. I feel like I'd end up needing a kidney and a lawyer after.

[Lythe Featherblade]

Whip is a small weapon, so can be 1-handed by a halfling

[unnone]

That's what I get for trusting the Bioware manual. I should know by now....