Post by unnone on May 24, 2007 22:53:56 GMT
Ok, I've spoken to a few people about this build. I figured I'd post it here, for input.
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The Eldritch Knight (19 Sorceror/20 Blackguard/ 1 Paladin)
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The Eldritch Knight is a bane knight with the added bonus of being a smiter. Because of the bonuses from great
smiting, this build achieves a reasonable AB even when not under tensors. With Tensors, this build can hit 25+27+20+4
= 76 AB, 70 AB with only GMW 14. BAB is maximized as high as possible (15). The build has access to 9th level
sorceror spells, and has a grabby DC of 49.
Cons: This build lacks spell penetration feats. Breach and Mord are your enemies, which results in you depending
upon spells for resistances more than your rings. As a strength build, you're going to get hit. A lot. Your concealment will be low, and premonition will get used up very fast because of this. You'll be casting in combat a lot. You also do not have a ton of skill points to go around - not really enough for four skills. No evasion (Evasion costs you 2 AB and dramatically lowers your saves to the realm of requiring +12 to stats gear). No epic summon. When not under tensors, you drop from 7 attacks a round to 4. Dying really sucks, since you have to rebuff. Thankfully, you only need resists. Extend spell is going to eat up your higher spell slots. Luckily, you can afford to gear in high spellslot gear without worrying about the statistics bonus. +12 Str, +12 Con, and +12 cha are all you need - and as a sorceror you can supply those to yourself, if you choose to take those spells.
Obviously, you don't need any help for saves. Your bonuses from +12 charisma gear alone make you meet 60ish saves - 41 cha gives +15 bonus to paladin or blackguard, and you have both. So what gets added to your saves at 20 is +71. Basically, your saves are hellworthy the moment you step on the path of this build. The nice thing about this is that it really frees up some gear - you don't need to really worry about maxing wisdom, or dexterity, as long as your charisma is pumped - and some feats - no save feats, YAAAAY!
Your biggest problem is going to be breach and Mord. Smite may have a tendancy to miss, since Bane knight builds count a lot on being buffed to the gills, and smite doesn't count your tensers bonus. Your BAB is as high as it can get for a bane knight, since you are required to take 12 sorc 12 bg before 25, and you need 6 BAB for bg. However, 64 Str will help out a lot.
The weapon I chose is a morningstar. I figured that was an appropriate weapon for an evil knight to wield. A better choice with the changes would probably be light flail. I'll most likely end up with any weapon I want by the time I see Hound Archon, if the sun doesn't go nova prior.
I also built using Baseborn, Rakshasa,and Prismatic, which all came out fairly similar, with anywhere from 4 to 6 less Str. When I started working with Hound Archon, I simply started drooling.
Right now, I've taken Legendary Focus: Evo. I'm worried about the lack of spell penetration, though. With Legendary Focus, I figure that your Grabby DC= 49. I have no experience with spell DCs, only having built melee. Can someone tell me if that is any good?
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Eldritch Knight ( Human Hound Archon) Progression
[Yeah, I know, I hate BUR builds too. I think this build requires everything Hound Archon has to offer, though. Other possible UR and secret races end up about 6 Str less than this build and close to 180 hp lighter.]
Progression: Your first five statups go into Charisma. After that, it's all strength. Pump hide to 5 by level 11, which is the first level you can take BG at. Take sorceror levels as fast as possible, but insert BG levels to make sure that every feat level is a blackguard level. Your strength will be very low at level 40, but the moment you talk to the legendary altar, you gain 10 points immediately, putting you on par with most tanks. Taunt, Discipline, and Concentration are your maxed skills. Tumble lags behind, but you can instead trade some from concentration to taunt.
Starting Stats (Char Gen) - Point cost:
Str: 18 (14) - 6pnts
Dex: 8 (8) - 0
Con: 18 (16) - 10 pnts
Wis: 8 (8) - 0 pnts
Int: 12 (12) - 4 pnts
Cha: 20 (16) - 10 pnts
Level Progression
Start as Lawful Good. You can change to glorious Evil immediately after levelling up from the Rowan Guardian, because Good is Dumb.
Hound Archon (Human): (Quick to Master, Extra Smiting, Great Smite, Power Attack)
01: Sorcerer(1): Still Spell, Cleave
02: Paladin(1)
03: Sorcerer(2): Weapon Focus: Morning Star
04: Sorcerer(3): CHA+1, (CHA=21)
05: Sorcerer(4)
06: Sorcerer(5): Blind Fight
07: Sorcerer(6)
08: Sorcerer(7): CHA+1, (CHA=22)
09: Sorcerer(8): Toughness
10: Sorcerer(9)
11: Sorcerer(10): **Hide to 5**
12: Blackguard(1): CHA+1, Extend Spell, (CHA=23), *Alignment Change*
13: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
14: Blackguard(3)
15: Blackguard(4): Improved Critical: Morning Star
16: Blackguard(5): CHA+1, (CHA=24)
17: Blackguard(6)
18: Blackguard(7): Divine Shield
19: Blackguard(8)
20: Blackguard(9): CHA+1, (CHA=25)
21: Blackguard(10): Great Smite II
22: Sorcerer(11)
23: Sorcerer(12)
24: Blackguard(11): STR+1, Great Smite III, (STR=19)
25: Blackguard(12) [Bane Knight status. AutoStill I-III gained]
26: Sorcerer(13)
27: Blackguard(13): Great Smite IV, Great Smite V
28: Sorcerer(14): STR+1, (STR=20)
29: Sorcerer(15)
30: Blackguard(14): Great Smite VI
31: Sorcerer(16)
32: Sorcerer(17): STR+1, (STR=21)
33: Blackguard(15): Great Smite VII
34: Sorcerer(18)
35: Sorcerer(19)
36: Blackguard(16): STR+1, Great Smite VIII, Great Smite IX, (STR=22)
37: Blackguard(17)
38: Blackguard(18)
39: Blackguard(19): Great Strength I, Great Smite X, (STR=23)
40: Blackguard(20): STR+1, (STR=24)
Legendary:42: Epic Prowess
45: Epic Weapon Focus
48: Legendary Spell Focus: Evocation (read a book for epic Evocation)
52-60: Great Strength 2 -5
Final Stats
STR: 18->52
DEX: 8
CON: 18
WIS: 10
INT: 12
CHA: 20->29
Relevant Stats at 60, geared-
Str: 64
Cha: 41
HP: 1086
AB:76
DC: 42 + Spell Level
Saves: Fail on 1/ Fail on 1/ Fail on 1. As stated above, with 29 base charisma, your save bonuses come to 10 epic+5 LL + 6 stats + 20 items + 15 (pal charisma 41) + 15 (bg charisma 41) = +71. 1 pal = 2/0/0, 9 BG = 6/3/3, 10 sorc = 3/3/7, for a total of 11/6/10. So your saves are 82/77/81 before base stats adjustments of 3/-1/-1, to give 85/76/82. Better get that reflex up some.
========================
Variants:
Building with Baseborn, Prismatic, or Rakshasa weakens your build considerably, costing you around 4 Str and about 200 HP. It can be done, but it's iffy.
Going legendary Sorceror is a big question mark in my mind. I can't see any real advantage to doing so - you hurt your DC by losing the legendary blackguard bonus stats, and gain some extra spells. Maybe there's something I haven't considered by going that route.
Replacing the paladin level with a non 4/4 level costs you 2 ab - one for the paladin level, and one more from the need to take 2 more sorceror levels. It also drops your saves 15 points.
=======================
Math: (Just in cased I messed up somewhere)
Strength Calculation:
24 Str @ 40
10 Str from GSmite X
10 Str from LL Feats
4 from Legendary BG
4 from Legendary Feat GStr 2-5
12 from gear
-----
64 Str. Str modifier is 27.
Bane Knight DC Modifier
DC modifier is 9*28/10 = 24.3
Bane Knight DC formula for grasping hand
DC = 10 + 24 (27*.9* str mod) + Spell Level(7) + 8= 49.
Str: 64
[18 Start + 5 Epic stats + 10 Legendary Stats + 10 Great Smite bonuses + 4 leg. blackguard bonuses + 5 Great Strengths
+ 12 gear ]
Cha: 41 [20 Start + 5 pre Epic Stats + 4 Legendary BG Bonus + 12 gear]
HP: 1086
[486 + 160 (20 legendary BG) + 80 (20 legendary levels @ 18 CON) + 360 (60 levels +12 CON)]
AB:76 [ 25 (BAB) +27 (Str) +20 (Tensors+Gmw) +4 (WF, EWF, EProwess) ]
-------------------------------------------------
The Eldritch Knight (19 Sorceror/20 Blackguard/ 1 Paladin)
-------------------------------------------------
The Eldritch Knight is a bane knight with the added bonus of being a smiter. Because of the bonuses from great
smiting, this build achieves a reasonable AB even when not under tensors. With Tensors, this build can hit 25+27+20+4
= 76 AB, 70 AB with only GMW 14. BAB is maximized as high as possible (15). The build has access to 9th level
sorceror spells, and has a grabby DC of 49.
Cons: This build lacks spell penetration feats. Breach and Mord are your enemies, which results in you depending
upon spells for resistances more than your rings. As a strength build, you're going to get hit. A lot. Your concealment will be low, and premonition will get used up very fast because of this. You'll be casting in combat a lot. You also do not have a ton of skill points to go around - not really enough for four skills. No evasion (Evasion costs you 2 AB and dramatically lowers your saves to the realm of requiring +12 to stats gear). No epic summon. When not under tensors, you drop from 7 attacks a round to 4. Dying really sucks, since you have to rebuff. Thankfully, you only need resists. Extend spell is going to eat up your higher spell slots. Luckily, you can afford to gear in high spellslot gear without worrying about the statistics bonus. +12 Str, +12 Con, and +12 cha are all you need - and as a sorceror you can supply those to yourself, if you choose to take those spells.
Obviously, you don't need any help for saves. Your bonuses from +12 charisma gear alone make you meet 60ish saves - 41 cha gives +15 bonus to paladin or blackguard, and you have both. So what gets added to your saves at 20 is +71. Basically, your saves are hellworthy the moment you step on the path of this build. The nice thing about this is that it really frees up some gear - you don't need to really worry about maxing wisdom, or dexterity, as long as your charisma is pumped - and some feats - no save feats, YAAAAY!
Your biggest problem is going to be breach and Mord. Smite may have a tendancy to miss, since Bane knight builds count a lot on being buffed to the gills, and smite doesn't count your tensers bonus. Your BAB is as high as it can get for a bane knight, since you are required to take 12 sorc 12 bg before 25, and you need 6 BAB for bg. However, 64 Str will help out a lot.
The weapon I chose is a morningstar. I figured that was an appropriate weapon for an evil knight to wield. A better choice with the changes would probably be light flail. I'll most likely end up with any weapon I want by the time I see Hound Archon, if the sun doesn't go nova prior.
I also built using Baseborn, Rakshasa,and Prismatic, which all came out fairly similar, with anywhere from 4 to 6 less Str. When I started working with Hound Archon, I simply started drooling.
Right now, I've taken Legendary Focus: Evo. I'm worried about the lack of spell penetration, though. With Legendary Focus, I figure that your Grabby DC= 49. I have no experience with spell DCs, only having built melee. Can someone tell me if that is any good?
===========================================
Eldritch Knight ( Human Hound Archon) Progression
[Yeah, I know, I hate BUR builds too. I think this build requires everything Hound Archon has to offer, though. Other possible UR and secret races end up about 6 Str less than this build and close to 180 hp lighter.]
Progression: Your first five statups go into Charisma. After that, it's all strength. Pump hide to 5 by level 11, which is the first level you can take BG at. Take sorceror levels as fast as possible, but insert BG levels to make sure that every feat level is a blackguard level. Your strength will be very low at level 40, but the moment you talk to the legendary altar, you gain 10 points immediately, putting you on par with most tanks. Taunt, Discipline, and Concentration are your maxed skills. Tumble lags behind, but you can instead trade some from concentration to taunt.
Starting Stats (Char Gen) - Point cost:
Str: 18 (14) - 6pnts
Dex: 8 (8) - 0
Con: 18 (16) - 10 pnts
Wis: 8 (8) - 0 pnts
Int: 12 (12) - 4 pnts
Cha: 20 (16) - 10 pnts
Level Progression
Start as Lawful Good. You can change to glorious Evil immediately after levelling up from the Rowan Guardian, because Good is Dumb.
Hound Archon (Human): (Quick to Master, Extra Smiting, Great Smite, Power Attack)
01: Sorcerer(1): Still Spell, Cleave
02: Paladin(1)
03: Sorcerer(2): Weapon Focus: Morning Star
04: Sorcerer(3): CHA+1, (CHA=21)
05: Sorcerer(4)
06: Sorcerer(5): Blind Fight
07: Sorcerer(6)
08: Sorcerer(7): CHA+1, (CHA=22)
09: Sorcerer(8): Toughness
10: Sorcerer(9)
11: Sorcerer(10): **Hide to 5**
12: Blackguard(1): CHA+1, Extend Spell, (CHA=23), *Alignment Change*
13: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
14: Blackguard(3)
15: Blackguard(4): Improved Critical: Morning Star
16: Blackguard(5): CHA+1, (CHA=24)
17: Blackguard(6)
18: Blackguard(7): Divine Shield
19: Blackguard(8)
20: Blackguard(9): CHA+1, (CHA=25)
21: Blackguard(10): Great Smite II
22: Sorcerer(11)
23: Sorcerer(12)
24: Blackguard(11): STR+1, Great Smite III, (STR=19)
25: Blackguard(12) [Bane Knight status. AutoStill I-III gained]
26: Sorcerer(13)
27: Blackguard(13): Great Smite IV, Great Smite V
28: Sorcerer(14): STR+1, (STR=20)
29: Sorcerer(15)
30: Blackguard(14): Great Smite VI
31: Sorcerer(16)
32: Sorcerer(17): STR+1, (STR=21)
33: Blackguard(15): Great Smite VII
34: Sorcerer(18)
35: Sorcerer(19)
36: Blackguard(16): STR+1, Great Smite VIII, Great Smite IX, (STR=22)
37: Blackguard(17)
38: Blackguard(18)
39: Blackguard(19): Great Strength I, Great Smite X, (STR=23)
40: Blackguard(20): STR+1, (STR=24)
Legendary:42: Epic Prowess
45: Epic Weapon Focus
48: Legendary Spell Focus: Evocation (read a book for epic Evocation)
52-60: Great Strength 2 -5
Final Stats
STR: 18->52
DEX: 8
CON: 18
WIS: 10
INT: 12
CHA: 20->29
Relevant Stats at 60, geared-
Str: 64
Cha: 41
HP: 1086
AB:76
DC: 42 + Spell Level
Saves: Fail on 1/ Fail on 1/ Fail on 1. As stated above, with 29 base charisma, your save bonuses come to 10 epic+5 LL + 6 stats + 20 items + 15 (pal charisma 41) + 15 (bg charisma 41) = +71. 1 pal = 2/0/0, 9 BG = 6/3/3, 10 sorc = 3/3/7, for a total of 11/6/10. So your saves are 82/77/81 before base stats adjustments of 3/-1/-1, to give 85/76/82. Better get that reflex up some.
========================
Variants:
Building with Baseborn, Prismatic, or Rakshasa weakens your build considerably, costing you around 4 Str and about 200 HP. It can be done, but it's iffy.
Going legendary Sorceror is a big question mark in my mind. I can't see any real advantage to doing so - you hurt your DC by losing the legendary blackguard bonus stats, and gain some extra spells. Maybe there's something I haven't considered by going that route.
Replacing the paladin level with a non 4/4 level costs you 2 ab - one for the paladin level, and one more from the need to take 2 more sorceror levels. It also drops your saves 15 points.
=======================
Math: (Just in cased I messed up somewhere)
Strength Calculation:
24 Str @ 40
10 Str from GSmite X
10 Str from LL Feats
4 from Legendary BG
4 from Legendary Feat GStr 2-5
12 from gear
-----
64 Str. Str modifier is 27.
Bane Knight DC Modifier
DC modifier is 9*28/10 = 24.3
Bane Knight DC formula for grasping hand
DC = 10 + 24 (27*.9* str mod) + Spell Level(7) + 8= 49.
Str: 64
[18 Start + 5 Epic stats + 10 Legendary Stats + 10 Great Smite bonuses + 4 leg. blackguard bonuses + 5 Great Strengths
+ 12 gear ]
Cha: 41 [20 Start + 5 pre Epic Stats + 4 Legendary BG Bonus + 12 gear]
HP: 1086
[486 + 160 (20 legendary BG) + 80 (20 legendary levels @ 18 CON) + 360 (60 levels +12 CON)]
AB:76 [ 25 (BAB) +27 (Str) +20 (Tensors+Gmw) +4 (WF, EWF, EProwess) ]