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Post by zerragon on Dec 1, 2006 9:19:06 GMT
Greetings, my new FA cleric caster is in progress, but I have a very hard time deciding epics (as usual).
My primary objective for this character is to be a valuable asset in Pyramid (as I allready have good characters for most other places), and possibly hells. Ive allready gotten good input from Chainlink (thanks !), but am still quite unsure about the epics.
I think Ive also (with both self testing, and reading what Yomi wrote) decided to skip combat casting and imp. combat casting, as hitting the defensive mode dont seem too much of a hindrance.
Evocation is a no brainer, as I wanna get as good implosions as I can, in addition to the other damage causing non healing spells. And the domination epic is a nice addon.
I will aim for three more epics (inlcuding book). Heres's my own analysis:
Enchantment: Beeing able to grant the whole party +4 ac, and +13 GMWs seems tempting. I plan to go for this one.
Abjuration: Aegis, 30/- resistance to all exotic damage types. Seems like a solid choice, and will probably be very important in hells. I plan to go for this one.
1 left:
Necromancy: Extra life seems nice to have, but I dont see it worth enough to be chosen as an epic, correct me if Im wring. Aslo, the harm spell dont have a DC, so it wont benefit from necro.
Transmutation: Clerics dont even get Keen, so I think I get too few advantages from choosing this one.
What Im most unsure about, are these:
Illusion: "This spell summons an Visage of Doom to attack the priest's enemies, lasting 20 rounds." Only 20 rounds I presume this one is really good ?, as the Balor lasting longer kicks ass.
Divination: On paper, Miracle looks awesome. But Im still unsure as 1000 HP really averagly isnt more than one full heal, and a cleric allready will get Mass ressurection as class secret. 2 rounds of stunning though is really nice, and can turn the tide of the battle dramatically.
Conjuration: Nice one, almost like Starfire, but since Miracle also stuns for 2 rounds, I find it more important to be able to save the party, then to deal an extra 500-600 dmg or so, thats just two meteors.
So, based on these assumptions, I plan to go for: Evocation Enchantmen Abjuration Divination
If I could get some input on this analyzis, preferably from you that have seen them in action/or have used in Pyramid, It would be much appretiated.
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Post by Yomi on Dec 1, 2006 22:47:20 GMT
Enchantment: Beeing able to grant the whole party +4 ac, and +13 GMWs seems tempting. I plan to go for this one. I think this epic is quite useful as a buff, and lasts a decent length of time. Only +2 to the non-shield users, but still appreciated. I've had it requested by a pyramid group before. I didn't take this one on my cleric (tough to work in 4 epics while maxing DCs for implode), and it sure would be nice. Not very long lasting, but really makes a difference when exotic kickback is an issue. In my experience with mass rez, you run up to the area, use it, and it works in some radius around where you targetted. In droc eyrie, if an unfortunate puller dies, this would require you to run out to rez them even with mass rez (you could be in GS admittedly). With miracle, every single dead person on the map, no matter where they are, is instantly up with one simple hotkey press. Much nicer. Some people use it early for the 1000hp, and I've seen that done effectively. Personally I try to save it for when people are dying and the rez+hp+stun would turn the battle, though this means we often go through an area without my using it. It's darn handy to be in the desert, for example, fighting along, note that 2+ skulls are appearing in the group, and be able to instantly get everyone back up with a round or two to get their bearings, without my having to move. I would have to guess as to how this would work in pyramid or Hells with a good party, but still seems valuable to me -- much more than just some more damage. As for improved combat casting, in an ideal world I'd have it, as it is easier with it, but until late 2008 when I finally stumble on a Half-Celestial book, I'm not seeing how I can fit it in without giving up things I want even more.
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Post by zerragon on Dec 20, 2006 11:47:24 GMT
A little late, but thanks for your input Yomi. My cleric is now at lvl 49, and looking good. Im with 4 epics, abjuration, enchantment, evocation and divination, and Im just on route to max DC with Great Wis 10. This will be at the cost of Armor skin and probably Lightning reflexes, as reflexes seems to end up at around 55, which isnt optimal. Whether or not I will sacrifice 1 dc is yet to see, I want to implode the damn heartseekers !! Im very pleased with my epics, and Miracle really rocks, I think its the coolest spell in the Mod, and your party loves it. When 4+ skulls are showing up, and you use mriacle, the reaction is priceless
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Post by nerohdam on Feb 20, 2007 19:55:16 GMT
"Skill(Class): Concentration(All), Heal(Cleric), SpellCraft(Cleric), Tumble(Monk), Discipline(Fighter/Monk), Craft Armor(All)"
Can someone explain the progression of the skills? Are you maxing out concentration heal spellcraft and craft armour during level 1 ? Don't you need to save some for Discipline and Tumble?
Also what is craft armour used for?
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Post by nerohdam on Feb 20, 2007 20:09:36 GMT
Newbie question here but why is intelligence 14? Is it to learn more spells? I thought wisdom affected clerics? Would it not be better to put into Charisma? Same with strength when using Fallen Angel would it not be better to put into charisma versus bumping up Strength since it is a caster cleric and not melee? Just wondering...
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Post by Yomi on Feb 20, 2007 20:51:57 GMT
I only took 12 INT on my human version. I can't see how it'd work any lower as you just couldn't get all the required skills. I wouldn't put so much into STR personally -- bump CON to 16 if possible, and the rest to CHA for saves if you're doing a paladin level. For Half-Celestial 38C/1P/1M I'd recommend 18 WIS, 14 CON, 12 INT, 12 CHA as this will give you max wisdom and +9 to all saves. With Fallen Angel I'd use 17 WIS, 16 CON, 12 INT, 10 CHA. Only +7 to saves but 60 more hp. These were my choices of course -- they're not the only way to make one. If you were skipping the paladin level I'd put the few extra CHA points into either dex (for reflex saves) or str (for touch attack ab and making earlier levels not an encumbrance struggle).
Concentration: You need this to be able to cast while taking some damage. Without maxing this you'll be ineffective as you'll never get any spells off.
Heal: Used for spontaneous inflict crits and cure crits. Yes, your good aligned cleric really can do this, including stilled and empowered and maximized versions. Select them from the spellbook and drag them to a hotkey. Just remember every use is sucking off some spell from that level. But they do great damage on things like the immo, the Voice, the Ssith golems, illithid cloning tubes, and almost any pesky cannon fodder. Without maxing this skill, you lose this fantastic damage dealing ability. You'll still have to hit them though -- for some things like tubes and golems this is easy. For things like Immo or Voice, having them grabbed helps a lot as well as using all your buffs like Divine Power, Prayer, Divine Favor, etc. You should be able to get a full +20 to your ab though it won't stay that high for terribly long. The "Um, who just hit the immo for 580 points?" message is worth the trouble.
Tumble on monk level: 40 points here means +8 AC for 40 skill points. Alternately you could do it crossclass -- +6 AC for 60 skill points. Clearly do it on the monk level.
Discipline on monk level: Max it out (43 points). You will find discipline checks in some LL areas. Not having good discipline will be painful. No expert but from what I've seen without completely maxing discipline you will find any Hells level lower than Tiamat a nightmare. In the non-Hells world, Gravitars may kill you with a few glances. You will find your armor and shield falling off at the worst times. Your staff will be taken away by various things. Not counting the Hells I suppose one could live without this but I'd sacrifice 1 save to max out discipline (the CHA vs. INT tradeoff). You'll still need to wear some +discipline gear or have bardsong up to keep this in range.
For me those are the critical ones. Spellcraft is kind of a waste in my opinion. You're not counterspelling anything so why do you need to know the spells? The save vs. spell bonus counts into the +20 save cap so once well equipped it has zero benefit. Since you'll have some extra skill points I don't see a real issue with putting up to 30 points in this (should guarantee identifying spells and also give a +6 save bonus if you need it), but beyond that just seems like it's throwing the points away.
Craft Armor is another one I couldn't recommend unless it was really your thing to constantly customize your appearance. Any wizard is going to have spell points coming out their tentacles and can easily put points into this and craft things for you. Alternately wear a toolbelt and get a bard to sing for you. Maybe even buy one of the new crafting items from the auction or (horrors) go exploring and find them. Again, if you want to change your appearance every day, then no problem -- take the skill! But for most people who craft a few times and are done with it it is easiest to get someone else to do it or wear the items.
My guilty pleasure skill is lore. I like to see what I've picked up. You need about 55 points in this to ID things like UR's and if you can't get 40 or more points it isn't worth it. And I wouldn't sacrifice any saves for it by any means (i.e. I wouldn't move points from CHA to INT for it). But with extra points it's convenient even thoguh technically it adds no value.
So what I personally did is: every level including the first and the paladin and monk levels, max out concentration and heal. At 19 or 20 when you take the paladin level, you can max discipline if you want though it probably won't matter. At level 40 take your monk level and max out (43 points) discipline, put 40 into tumble, and continue concentration and heal. If you took human and 12 INT, you'll have a few skill points not allocated -- 15 if you are an FA, 5 for HC or other subrace. You could put this into spellcraft early on (but be careful to make sure you don't put too much in!) to be able to see spells and get the save bonus as early as possible when it's meaningful. +3 to saves vs. spells isn't going to be dramatic but it can't hurt. Ideally you will end having spent all your spell points since you can't bank them into LL's. Once in LL's you'll have extra points since you're maxing heal and concentration still but now have 2 extra points each level. You could use these to bump spellcraft some more or spend them somewhere else like Lore.
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Post by nerohdam on Feb 20, 2007 21:13:40 GMT
Thanks for the info Yomi!
I was just unsure about all the skill sets as it seemed by maxing out all the cleric based skills you would not have enough for when you needed to max out for monk levels.
Also to make sure is spell craft really not useful? I plan on not using combat casting and hotkey i believe defensive or parry or something that some have recommended doing in place of choosing combat casting. I have always seen people pick spellcraft for clerics but if it is not needed then yeah i will use for other areas.
I can't believe I was gonna put max into craft armor!!! I thought that was needed in order to get a feat or something... As it now stands I am gonna max concentration and heal and on monk level max discipline and tumble. Just want to make sure again spellcraft is not needed.
Also I do plan on taking paladin instead of fighter. Again are you sure taking 12 in intelligence will not cause a deficiency in requirements for a feat or some other thing I need to know? Otherwise I will put into either cons or charisma for paladin as I don't think strenth is needed either unless I am wrong or someone can point out the pros and cons.
Also I noticed you took paladin at 19 or 20. Whereas the original poster to this build put his fighter at 39. Any pros or cons as to where to put the paladin?
Also, how many skill points do i get anyway? I don't want to waste then once I reach LL or does INT determine this?
Thanks!
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Post by Yomi on Feb 20, 2007 23:58:05 GMT
I highly recommend doing a test build (put the word [TEST] anywhere in your name). Level up putting skills and feats where you want all the way to 40. You can also use the CBC spreadsheet which is what I do, but if you want to be sure do a test build -- it's always right. 12 INT works for me as long as you use Human as the base race (you get an extra skill point per level for a total of 4, and since you're trying to take 4 skills that works out). Again if you have any doubts, make a test build. Better to spend an hour with it than a couple days getting to 40 and then find out it's built wrong. Besides you can also verify that the voiceset you chose won't drive you crazy. Is spellcraft necessary? I have a level 60 caster cleric (39 cleric 1 monk) who has been to every non-Hells LL area and has Tiamat tag but has never put a point into Spellcraft. I'd say no, it's not necessary. She put it into Lore instead so can ID almost anything (Fallen Angel so put the extra 55 total points into Lore). Read the nwnwiki page on spellcraft and see what it says. You won't be able to counterspell effectively but I've never done that with a cleric anyway. For STR I have chosen 8 (the minimum). During early levels you will probably not be able to wear full plate due to weight and instead use chain shirt. You'll have to wear a str item like belt of frost giant str and so on to get str up high enough to wear the plate and tower shield. You may find it helpful to cast bulls str. Keep most items in bags to reduce weight. Prismatic dragon armor, wearable at level 29, is a huge help -- weight of 5.0 and +4 to str (among other things). If you have a UR item that gives +12 to str (e.g. blessed bequest, crown of empire, or titan's top helms) you will have no issues with at all once you hit 40. I admit this is an annoyance while levelling. But it's not that big and once you get +12 it's a nonissue (don't even need that much really). STR does help you hit things with your touch attack, but at some point you should be hitting things pretty readily using just divine power.
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Post by khaine on Feb 21, 2007 22:35:31 GMT
I plan on making this build with the Anarch burr, and so far it seems like I can drop the armour skin feat (free feat) and get great wisdom IX.
Stats will be thus:
STR: 10 DEX: 12 CON: 10 (14) WIS: 17 (23) INT: 12 CHA: 10
I put the wisdom at 23 so that when it met great wis IX it would even out, and dex 12 will be the maximum bonus I can get for full plate, I don't think I need int at 14 because I am missing out craft armour, xD.
Have I missed anything important or is this ok to go off from? xD, and ty.
xD.
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Post by zerragon on Feb 23, 2007 13:06:32 GMT
Ive rolled a new Human Half-Celestial cleric now, currently @ 40, but here is the layout:
Str: 8 Dex: 8 Con: 16 Wis: 18 (24) Int :12 Cha: 8 (12)
Progression: 1-18 cleric (want good implosions first), 19 paladin, 20 - 39 Cleric, 40 Monk. Maxing conc, heal, and tumble and discipline @ monk lvl.
Book: Divination
Half celestial feats: greater epic evoc epic sf heal
Pre epic feats: luck of heroes toughness spell penetration greater spell penetration sf enchantment greater sf enchantment silent spell combat casting
Epic feats: epic sf evocation epic spell penetration improved combat casting Great wis 1-6 sf abjuration greater sf abjuration epic sf abjuration
LL feats: LL sf evocation LL spell penetration Great wis 7-10 Empower spell or LL luck of heroes
Pros: Best implode DC possible 4 epics (evocation,enchantment,abjuration,divination) High dicipline High heal skills that gives som nice enhancements to certain spells. High fort and will saves.
Cons: Sucky reflex saves.
Edit: Luck of heroes was perhaps not the best feat to get at lvl 1, perhaps silent spell (and empower at silent spell) or light reflex would be better. Then either LL reflexes or Maximize spell @ 60.
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 13, 2007 6:49:09 GMT
Well since everyone else is posting a shot of their Demigod in their respective build threads . . . These final stats reflect +2 all around from demi and +2 from wis artifact. AC is relatively low in shot due to lack of buffs. AC in robes is pretty crazy and I've been known to wear them in places like phleg. Starting stats were (after Half Celestial): Str: 8 Dex: 8 Con: 16 Wis: 18 (24) Int :10 Cha: 10 (14) Here's the build progression I followed with her: 1-Cl 01: Cleric(1): Spell Focus: Enchantment, Spell Penetration 2-P 02: Paladin(1) 3-Cl 03: Cleric(2): Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment 4-Cl 04: Cleric(3) 5-Cl 05: Cleric(4) 6-Cl 06: Cleric(5): Greater Spell Penetration 7-Cl 07: Cleric(6) 8-Cl 08: Cleric(7) 9-Cl 09: Cleric(8): Toughness 10-Cl 10: Cleric(9) 11-Cl 11: Cleric(10) 12-Cl 12: Cleric(11): Silent Spell 13-Cl 13: Cleric(12) 14-Cl 14: Cleric(13) 15-Cl 15: Cleric(14): Maximize Spell 16-Cl 16: Cleric(15) 17-Cl 17: Cleric(16) 18-Cl 18: Cleric(17): Empower Spell 19-Cl 19: Cleric(18) 20-Cl 20: Cleric(19) 21-Cl 21: Cleric(20): Epic Spell Focus: Enchantment 22-Cl 22: Cleric(21) 23-Cl 23: Cleric(22) 24-Cl 24: Cleric(23) Spell Focus: Divination, Great Wisdom I 25-Cl 25: Cleric(24) 26-Cl 26: Cleric(25) 27-Cl 27: Cleric(26): Greater Spell Focus: Divination, Armor Skin 28-Cl 28: Cleric(27) 29-Cl 29: Cleric(28) 30-Cl 30: Cleric(29): Epic Spell Focus: Divination, Epic Spell Penetration 31-Cl 31: Cleric(30) 32-Cl 32: Cleric(31) 33-Cl 33: Cleric(32): Great Wisdom II, Great Wisdom III 34-Cl 34: Cleric(33) 35-Cl 35: Cleric(34) 36-Cl 36: Cleric(35): Great Wisdom IV, Epic Spell Focus: Evocation 37-Cl 37: Cleric(36) 38-Cl 38: Cleric(37) 39-Cl 39: Cleric(38): Great Wisdom V, Great Wisdom VI 40-M 40: Monk(1): Read Necro book Legendary FeatsLegendary Spell Penetration Legendary Evocation Legendary Necro Grt Wis 7-10 If I were to build her again I'd probably skip empower spell as maximize seems more useful though nice to have both, maybe start with 12 int and 8 cha, take epic reflexes to cover the reflex save which can still be somewhat annoying, though obviously not overly detrimental. With only 10 int had to skimp on skill points and didn't quite max out conc (came close in heal, did max disc and tumble to 40). Relatively low conc doesn't affect her normally though she'll get the occasional spell disruption when getting smacked hard by something, often combined with me forgetting to use defensive casting mode. Necro focus may have been a mistake given the apparent uselessness of inflict crits in the hells (though very useful elsewhere)- however high destruction can be nice on occasion. Still, eternal return was extremely useful to the party and combined with miracle helped to overcome very dire situations. Most would probably take Aegis instead, but eternal return proved to be helpful time and again. Would definitely recommend miracle and girding to any cleric intent on visiting the hells. -S
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Post by cathedralmaster on Mar 25, 2007 21:08:31 GMT
I was just wondering what you guys think of buffs. I recently redid all my buffs on my cleric in an attempt to streamline it a little and my current setup is:
Stoneskin (Drop it in the Hells) Energy Buffer Divine Power (It's hp bonus overwrites others like miracle and aid) Bless Enthropic Shield (Drop in the Hells) Aid (It's hp bonus doesn't overwrite and it stacks with itself) Regeneration Uundeath's Eternal Foe Battletide
Eternal Return Girding of the Faithful Sheath of Stealth - Improved Invisibility (Can drop around druids) Staff of Kyon - Epic Warding
I might drop aid in the hells as well. I also use prayer of course but I use that for other things besides buffing so I didn't list it.
What do you guys use?
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 25, 2007 21:44:23 GMT
I *mostly* use stoneskin in the hells as it ... *appears* to be able to soak some of the damage from spinagons, doesn't seem to do much anywhere else. I don't bother with divine power or entropic shield under normal circumstances. Aid, Regen, energy buffer, UEF, improved invis from the sheath of stealth and shadow shield from the staff are my typical buffs. I don't use epic warding until just before or during a bit of nasty combat, i.e. not part of my standard after rest buffs. It doesn't last long enough for an "always on" buff in my personal opinion.
I wouldn't keep battletide as an "always on" either necessarily as it will break sanctuary but would definitely keep hotslotted. I don't use autocaster for buffs and keep the same number of each memmed so if someone breaks party I know where I left off.
-S
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Post by bort on Mar 25, 2007 21:55:10 GMT
I was just wondering what you guys think of buffs. I recently redid all my buffs on my cleric in an attempt to streamline it a little and my current setup is: Stoneskin (Drop it in the Hells) Energy Buffer Divine Power (It's hp bonus overwrites others like miracle and aid) Bless Enthropic Shield (Drop in the Hells) Aid (It's hp bonus doesn't overwrite and it stacks with itself) Regeneration Uundeath's Eternal Foe Battletide Eternal Return Girding of the Faithful Scabbard of Blessing - Improved Invisibility (Can drop around druids) Staff of Kyon - Epic Warding I might drop aid in the hells as well. I also use prayer of course but I use that for other things besides buffing so I didn't list it. What do you guys use? The torch that requires Evil alignment and 30 levels of cleric and gives damage reduction twice a day.
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Post by Yomi on Mar 25, 2007 23:14:12 GMT
I took extend on my clerics. Most of my buffs are done extended. It's not required but nice for buffing and divine power.
Bless Prayer (use this in battle too) UEF Monsterous Regen Regenerate Aid Entropic Shield Divine Power (needs extended) Battletide (I cancel this if needed e.g. Greater Sanc)
Then by hand, Energy Buffer and good thid torch for 38-40% conceal (better than the 25% from sheath). I do stoneskin occasionally -- probably should do it all the time now that it works in LL areas.
I put the party-type buffs first, so I can get centered, hit autocaster, and hope it'll hit people before they take off running and then start asking for buffs afterwards. Hitting the party with prayer is an extra +3 to all their attacks.
Girding when appropriate. Epic Warding never as part of regular buffs. I see people doing that and watch as it wears off before the first fight even starts because of slow parties. Use it when it won't be long until the fight that needs it.
I use an autocaster on my cleric because of all the buffs, and I switch between caster types constantly so trying to keep them straight is hard for me. If I were playing nothing but a cleric for a couple weeks I might do that. I don't use an autocaster on my mages.
On thid torchs, it looks like the evil one has a soak of 35 with a limit of 6000hp. I don't know what the plus is. It works on the East Road bandits and Lair Guardians. It doesn't work at all on Stinger arrows. For my armored cleric, the conceal makes a huge difference in both being hit as well as sanders and living sands. The extra soak would make very little difference. In robes the extra soak would be useful if it actually soaked anything. At least it lasts a long time -- the conceal has to be refreshed pretty often.
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