Defender Against the Hells Rog 13/DwD 26/Monk 1

[phalthallus]

This is a rebuild of a toon I started a long, long time ago, and with the advent of some of the new changes to the Nine Hells, I think I want to remake him. I thought I'd post it here, mainly to get advice and suggestions on the build, but also because I think it could be pretty decent if I can work out the details.

First build post, so please be gentle (yet constructive). ;D

I went with Lycan, though any subrace that can use Dwarf as its base race works, preferably with bonuses to dex and/or con, and wisdom to some extent (only a BUR is going to give you all of that though )

Also, I chose handaxe as my weapon, thought any medium sized weapon would be fine. I simply find that I can dual-wield with this build a fair amount, so a smaller weapon helps my AB. That, and I had a DB handaxe. But I won't be dualing in the Hells, so a medium weapon such as a rapier would work just fine.

Starting Stats (modified):
Str: 10
Dex: 22
Con: 20
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 4
01: Rogue(1): Luck of Heros
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Finesse, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): CON+1, (CON=21)
05: Rogue(5)
06: Rogue(6): Iron Will
07: Rogue(7)
08: Rogue(8): CON+1, (CON=22)
09: Rogue(9): Toughness
10: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
11: Dwarven Defender(1): {Defensive Stance}
12: Dwarven Defender(2): DEX+1, Weapon Focus: Handaxe, {Defensive Awareness I}, (DEX=21)
13: Dwarven Defender(3)
14: Dwarven Defender(4)
15: Dwarven Defender(5): Improved Critical: Handaxe
16: Dwarven Defender(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Dwarven Defender(7)
18: Dwarven Defender(8): Blind Fight
19: Dwarven Defender(9)
20: Dwarven Defender(10): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
21: Rogue(11): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=24)
22: Rogue(12)
23: Dwarven Defender(11)
24: Dwarven Defender(12): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=26)
25: Dwarven Defender(13)
26: Dwarven Defender(14): Armor Skin
27: Dwarven Defender(15): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=27)
28: Dwarven Defender(16): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
29: Dwarven Defender(17)
30: Dwarven Defender(18): Great Dexterity IV, Epic Damage Reduction I, (DEX=29)
31: Dwarven Defender(19)
32: Dwarven Defender(20): Epic Weapon Focus: Handaxe
33: Dwarven Defender(21)
34: Dwarven Defender(22): Epic Damage Reduction II
35: Dwarven Defender(23): DEX+1, Epic Prowess, (DEX=30)
36: Rogue(13): DEX+1, Defensive Roll, (DEX=31)
37: Dwarven Defender(24)
38: Dwarven Defender(25)
39: Dwarven Defender(26): Epic Dodge, Epic Damage Reduction III
40: Monk(1): DEX+1, {Cleave, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}, (DEX=32)
41:
42: Self Concealment I, Dex+1
43:
44: Dex+1
45: Self Concealment II
46: Dex+1
47:
48: Self Concealment III, Dex+1
49:
50: Dex+1
51: Self Concealment IV
52: Dex+1
53:
54: Self Concealment V, Dex+1
55:
56: Dex+1
57: LL Will
58: Dex+1
59:
60: LL Luck of Heroes, Dex+1

Total Dex should be 44 and con of 22 by 60.

Saves at 60 should be 62 fort, 67 reflex, and 64 will.

Naked attack bonus at 40 = 44/39/34/30

Skills:
Max Discipline, 40 into Tumble, 34 into UMD, 30 Hide, 20'ish PP

Benefits:
All 5 Self Conceal feats (though not until LL's)
Epic Dodge
27/- DR
Nice hit points
Pretty Decent AB
Discipline is a class skill
Enough UMD to use level 9 scrolls

The general idea behind the build is a dex tank that's difficult to hit, with self concealment, epic dodge, and relatively decent AC, and when he is hit, has pretty nice DR to soften the blow. He's got fairly decent hit points as well, so once something does hit him and overcomes his DR, he has enough hit points that he won't fold like a deck of cards.

One nice thing for the hells is that it's a dex-based toon, with discipline as a class skill. This should help considerably (I hope) in the Hells, against the various attacks there.

Feats can be moved around to some extent, just make sure to have your dex, tumble, and hide up to 30 in time to take Epic Dodge and SC I at an appropriate time.

So....feedback? Yay? Nay? Few tweaks here and there? Scrap it?

Edit 1: Had some incorrect feats in there - took out Great Fortitude (which my saves weren't based on anyway, I just forgot to update the feat selection - so the fort save stays the same), and moved Blind Fight to 18, instead of 3, putting Weapon Finesse at 3.
Edit 2: Moved last rogue level from 32 to 36, to get a higher UMD score, to compensate for the hells penalties. Moving it here has no negative effect on the build.

[starlandra]

it is interesting but by going dex based you are throwing away the str modifier being added to your natural ac from the dwarven defender. Also, is that much rogue really needed? It won't be your main class so you can add to open locks etc in legendary levels. Why not just take 10 levels in shadow dancer and add the extra 3 levels to more DD or get the 3 monk and add one more to DD. Speeds is always a good thing

[jets16]

Shadowdancer doesn't get UMD. I think it would essentially come down to whether or not you wanted UMD or the extra speed.

Phal, I think you missed weapon finesse somewhere in there. Maybe drop the epic weapon focus, move the regular weapon focus to LL's and take finesse at 12?

If you wanted to keep the extra AB, guess you could drop improved critical instead.

[phalthallus]

Yeah, I know about losing out on the AC (and physical immunity) of DwD and going strength, but you're also gaining a lot (self conceal and epic dodge). I think that these outweigh AC in some cases. And going dex, I don't think you're AC is going to be much (if any) lower than a strength-based DwD, since I'm throwing in monk AC bonus too. Also, with the new dex-based KD checks in the hells, this should help immensely.

You can't do 10 SD and still load up on DwD, since they're both prestige classes. If you lowered DwD to 24, or 21, you might get away with it then, at the cost of DwD DR.

You could, however, go 13 Rogue/3 Monk/24 DwD, and lose out on 3/- DR. Basically just swap some DR for the speed boost (which you can't supply yourself, so you need a friendly Ranger, Druid, or Cleric in your party).

For that matter, you could drop 2 EDR feats and swap in GrDex feats too, to raise AB and AC by 1. Totally up to the builder's preference.

[phalthallus]

jets16 said:

Shadowdancer doesn't get UMD. I think it would essentially come down to whether or not you wanted UMD or the extra speed.

Phal, I think you missed weapon finesse somewhere in there. Maybe drop the epic weapon focus, move the regular weapon focus to LL's and take finesse at 12?

If you wanted to keep the extra AB, guess you could drop improved critical instead.

Thanks, I just realized that this morning too. I had an old feat selection in there. Updated now. First note at the bottom of the original post tells what was changed.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[hiryuu]

You only get the monk AC bonus if you go without a shield, and you don't have nearly the Wisdom to make that a useful tradeoff. I haven't taken my Dexer Defender into the Hells since the recent changes, but I've really enjoyed the build.

[phalthallus]

Thanks for the comment hiryuu. I had forgotten about the monk bonus not being added in when wearing a shield (because the current incarnation currently duals in a lot of areas, rather than using a shield. But in the tougher areas, a shield is required. So obviously in the Hells I will be using a shield.

Would you mind sharing your class breakdown? Without taking 1 Monk, I'm wondering about taking 3 more Rogue, to get Slippery Mind, but then losing out on 3/- DR, and an epic feat.

A paladin level for saves is a joke, with my monstrous 4 charisma.

Fighter would give me one more feat, and some proficiencies. That's what I did the first time around. But honestly with DwD I don't need the proficiencies provided by fighter, and I don't even know what feat I would take with the free one you get. So that doesn't really make sense.

I suppose I could take Barbarian, for just a couple more HP's, and barbarian speed. But that seems like a waste.

Ranger might make some sense, to get one favored enemy, and be able to dual-wield in the easier areas.

I think the additional 3 levels of Rogue makes sense, for Slippery Mind. And it's the only option I've discussed so far that won't have a 20% XP penalty. It makes even more sense if SM really does provide you with mind immunity to a lot of the effects in HG. But I think there's still some debate about that. Does it actually make you immune, or does it simply let you re-roll against other non-spell effects?

[hiryuu]

Funky is improving the use of Slippery Mind, but I am not thrilled with it at the moment.

My dexer defender has Rogue as primary, for legendary tumble. I posted a version here:
highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=builds&action=display&n=1&thread=1146516626

I would probably alter this to 8 Rogue/2 Fighter/10 DD pre-epic, and 16 Rogue/2 Fighter/22 DD total. That would get you another Rogue feat (for SM or SC), a couple pre-epic feats, and another AB.

[phalthallus]

That does make sense to me. No XP penalty, and the differences you mentioned. I think I'll alter this to reflect the changes. I'll have to run it through the tester to see how it affects the build, but I like the idea. The monk really didn't make sense to me anyway, and I was really trying to keep that 26th level of DwD to get the other epic feat and last 3/- DR. But I think another rogue feat, the fighter feats, and possibly the additional AB, would all outweigh those. I'll test and update this again.

Thanks for your feedback hiryuu. Very much appreciated.