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Post by stonewarrior on Feb 5, 2007 21:03:09 GMT
Hi all, in anticipation of a Battlerager I have been working on build ideas and can't seem to get what I want to work. I have looked at the Tin Can and the Dwarf of Steel and I want a combo of both: A RDD / DD who uses a two bladed sword (guess I have a DB 2 bladed sword and I want to use it. lol).
I worked it up on the CBC starting with the following:
16 (20) Str 15 Dex (this hurts but need for ambi etc) 14 (19) Con 8 Wis 8 (6) Int (this also hurts b/c basically I get NO skill points) 14 (9) Cha (had an extra point so I put it here)
My thinking is I would take Con at level 4 to get to an even 22 and then take 9 Str ability points through 40. The level progression is 1-5 Bard, 6-11 RDD, 12-20 DD, 21-25 RDD and 26-40 DD. My feats would be...
Pre-Epic 1 Ambidexterity 3 Two Handed Fighting 6 Weapon Proficienty: Exotic (I could use the Cloak of the Worlds but am not sure I would want to rely on this) 9 Weapon Focus: Two Bladed Sword 12 Blind Fight 15 Lightning Reflexes 18 Iron Will
Epic 21 Improved two weapon fighting 24 Improved Critical: Two Bladed Sword 27 Epic Reflexes 30 Great Constitution 30 *Armor Skin 33 Great Constitutin 34 *Epic Prowess 36 Great Strength 38 *Epic Weapon Focus: Two Bladed Sword 39 Great Strength
Legendary Epic Will Epic Damage Reduction 1 Great Strength (3-7)
Here are the stats at level 40 Hitpoints: 734 Skillpoints: 51 Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 29/26/27 Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Traps: +1, Poison: +2 BAB: 26 AB (max, naked): 44 (melee), 29 (ranged) AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 18/28
My ability points at level 40 are:
39 Str (this would even out in LL’s) 15 Dex 24 Con 8 Wis 8 Int 11 Cha
I really like using RDD because it gives me immunity to fire as well as some nice ability bonuses.
The number one problem I am having is the horrible number of skill points. I have only enough to max Discipline and get to 8 Lore by level 5 allowing me to start taking Red Dragon Disciple levels.
I have not tested the build because again I do not yet have the Battlerager but am hoping someone out there might give some feedback on whether this would even be a viable build based on the lack of skill points and the set up. My feeling is it would do alright in low levels but the lack of skill points would really stand out as my levels got higher. As an alternative I would ditch the Two Bladed Sword and go with a Battleaxe and redo the ability points / feats completely (it would then essentially be a variation fo the Tin Can).
Peace, John.
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Post by exidorthequick on Feb 6, 2007 0:00:31 GMT
8 (6) Int (this also hurts b/c basically I get NO skill points) [...] Here are the stats at level 40 [...] Skillpoints: 51 [...] The number one problem I am having is the horrible number of skill points. I have only enough to max Discipline and get to 8 Lore by level 5 allowing me to start taking Red Dragon Disciple levels. It's worse than you think; the program you're using has miscalculated how many skill points you'll have. You will only have 57 skill points total by level 60. The best you could do is 8 Lore, 49 Discipline. Considering your Str bonus, 49 Discipline may be okay (more would be better), but your AC will suffer (essentially -6 AC penalty due to not having skill points for tumble). Since your build doesn't use a shield either, you're probably going to get hit a lot. The positive spin is that your Defensive Weave ability will get a lot of use, however you should do everything you can to get as much damage immunity as possible if you want to be able to survive all those hits. My thinking is I would take Con at level 4 to get to an even 22 and then take 9 Str ability points through 40. [...] 30 Great Constitution [...] 33 Great [Constitution] [...] Great Strength (3-7) I think Str is going to be more important to you than Con. Taking 5 levels of Bard and 6 Levels of RDD pre-epic has cost you 4 points of BAB (a necessary sacrifice), so you'll want every increase to your AB you can get. I wouldn't start taking extra Con until your Str was maxed out. 6 Weapon Proficienty: Exotic (I could use the Cloak of the Worlds but am not sure I would want to rely on this) 9 Weapon Focus: Two Bladed Sword [...] 24 Improved Critical: Two Bladed Sword [...] 38 *Epic Weapon Focus: Two Bladed Sword You can't rely on it. You won't be able to take any Two-Bladed Sword feats without first taking Exotic WP. (DD 24 / RDD 11 / Bard 5) The 11th level of RDD doesn't really get you any benefit. If you were to take a 25th level of DD that would give you +1 damage to your Defensive Weave. It's not a big improvement, but it's better than nothing. Even better would be to take a 6th level of Bard at level 37 to raise your tumble to 40, but you'll need more skill points to be able to do that.
I would recommend these changes: Base stats *: (After Battlerager race edits are applied.)Str 16 (20)Dex 15 (15)Con 15 (18)Wis 8 (8)Int 10 (8)Cha 11 (8)Level Progression: 1-5 Bard, 6-11 RDD, 12-20 DD, 21-24 RDD, 25-36 DD, 37 Bard, 38-40 DD. Stat Increases: All to Str Feats: 1 Two-Weapon Fighting (Has better combat effect than Ambidexterity, imo, so would take it first.) 3 Ambidexterity 6 Weapon Proficiency: Exotic 9 Weapon Focus: Two-Bladed Sword 12 Lightning Reflexes 15 Iron Will 18 Blind Fight (Moved this to 18 because it doesn't seem to come up much until later levels.)21 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 24 Improved Critical: Two-Weapon Sword 27 Epic Reflexes 29 Armor Skin 30 Epic Will (Moved this to pre-legendary as a matter of personal taste.)33 Great Strength I, Epic Prowess 36 Great Strength II 38 Epic Weapon Focus: Two-Bladed Sword 39 Great Strength III 42 Great Strength IV 45 Great Strength V 48 Great Strength VI 51 Great Strength VII 54 Great Strength VIII 57 Great Strength IX 60 Great Strength X Skills: (122 skill points total at L60.)8 Lore by L5 40 Tumble by L37 63 Discipline by L60 11 skill points spent elsewhere to taste Stats at L40 & L60Str 41 58Dex 15 15Con 20 20Wis 8 8Int 10 10Cha 10 10These changes would cost you 3/- physical damage reduction (since you lose EDR I) and 80 hit points, but you would gain +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2% physical damage immunity, and +8 AC (from tumble). Edit:* Forgot to note that these are the base stats including the Dwarf race modifiers. In your base stats you listed the raw base numbers and then included both the Dwarf and Battlerager modifiers together. I should have pointed out the difference in my original post.
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Post by zerragon on Feb 6, 2007 7:45:52 GMT
To exidorthequick's edit I would like to recommend dropping 2 Great strength feats for Epic fortitude (Will be needed in hells where your death immunity is scripted off and saves reduced) and Great dexterity 1 (will net you an extra reflex save, which this build badly needs).
As for EDR 1, you dont need it. Youre so immune to physical that its not a problem anymore, and when you get a good soak item, it wont stack with it anyway.
I got a similiar Tin can build (using dwarven waraxe instead), and I usually only take damage from exotic damage sources.
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Post by atomicsomething on Feb 6, 2007 8:09:49 GMT
As for EDR 1, you dont need it. Youre so immune to physical that its not a problem anymore, and when you get a good soak item, it wont stack with it anyway. err .... it stacks.
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Post by setekhi on Feb 6, 2007 8:31:39 GMT
afaik, wearing armor reduces your dexterity as far as reflex saves are concerned, so unless you plan on wearing breastplate, having 16 dex will still only get you a +1 total dex modifier for saves. And that's not counting the +12 from items you're probably getting anyways, so it's more likely that you're looking at wearing robes if you really need to get your reflex up that way.
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Post by zerragon on Feb 6, 2007 9:10:35 GMT
From nwnWiki:
This feat stacks with Barbarian damage reduction and Dwarven Defender damage reduction. It also stacks with items that provide physical damage resistance (such as a Brawler's Belt), but it does not stack with damage reduction spells such as Stoneskin or Premonition.
Seems like it might stack with items, since it says "spells", but both effects are SOAK. Tested this ?
No, reflex save is not affected by Armor, only skills and armor class modifiers. So you can wear a full plate, have 20 Dexterity, and get +5 reflex saves from it.
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Post by bort on Feb 6, 2007 9:13:48 GMT
afaik, wearing armor reduces your dexterity as far as reflex saves are concerned, so unless you plan on wearing breastplate, having 16 dex will still only get you a +1 total dex modifier for saves. And that's not counting the +12 from items you're probably getting anyways, so it's more likely that you're looking at wearing robes if you really need to get your reflex up that way. I just tested this because I was curious. Heavy Armor, no dex boost from anything: 40 Reflex Heavy Armor, +12 dex: 46 Reflex (+6 modifier) No Heavy Armor, +12 dex: 46 Reflex. So it makes no difference.
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Post by setekhi on Feb 6, 2007 9:52:39 GMT
That's really funny, and not at all how it's supposed to work in D&D (not that that's ever had relevance before ). I wonder though, does it count in the combat logs? I still don't know if the character sheet lies about saving throws, but it does lie about everything else, so... Edit: just tested, it's telling the truth. That's retarded/awesome and changes things then, heh.
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Post by stonewarrior on Feb 6, 2007 16:47:44 GMT
Hi, a few questions...
First, would I benefit from starting with 15 / 19 Strength and adding 2 points to Int for a boost in my skill points? It would not be a huge boost, but it looks like I would get 43 additional points pre LL. I could then use one ability point on level up for Dexterity (to keep my Strength at an even number) to get me to 16 for the reflex save (if I am reading the above right).
Second, if I were to drop two great strengths as Zerragon suggests to take Epic Fortitude I would essentially be losing 4 points in Strength (assuming I did the above). Would this translate to 2 point of AB? If so, would this be worth the trade off of increasing my Fortitude save? Also, that would free up one feat (I suppose I could take both Great Fortitude and Epic Fortitude), is there something I could take to offset the AB loss? =
Thanks to all for you help.
Peace, John.
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Post by exidorthequick on Feb 9, 2007 16:41:00 GMT
[...] if I were to drop two great strengths as Zerragon suggests to take Epic Fortitude I would essentially be losing 4 points in Strength (assuming I did the above). Would this translate to 2 point of AB? Yes. [...] is there something I could take to offset the AB loss? No. You've already got all the feats that you can take to increase your attack bonus (except feats to increase Str). That's why I recommend doing everything you can to increase your Str. [...] would this be worth the trade off of increasing my Fortitude save? Personally, I don't think so, Fortitude is going to be your highest save. Your reflex save could definitely use a boost, and I'd suggest removing Epic Will and replacing it with Legendary Reflexes (+7 reflex save) now that it is available. You won't be able to take that until 42, so shift Great Strength feats earlier as needed. If, after that change, you still feel that your saves are not high enough then I would suggest taking Epic Fortitude and Legendary Will in place of 2 Great Strength feats. [...] would I benefit from starting with 15 / 19 Strength and adding 2 points to Int for a boost in my skill points? It would not be a huge boost, but it looks like I would get 43 additional points pre LL. I could then use one ability point on level up for Dexterity (to keep my Strength at an even number) to get me to 16 for the reflex save (if I am reading the above right). My original suggested modification would get you plenty of skill points without having to lower your strength. Are you asking about this because you don't want to lower your Con and still want to take 2 Great Con feats so that you qualify to take Epic Damage Reduction? If you're not willing to give up the EDR feat and the 4 points of Con, then lowering Str is your only option for getting a reasonable number of skill points. If you do try to retain those three feats, however, and you start with a lower Str, and you spend a stat increase on Dex, and you skip some Great Str feats in favor of save boosting feats, then you'll be looking at sacrificing more than just 4 points of Str.
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