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Post by mishimayukio on Jan 9, 2007 1:18:17 GMT
Forgot to post my spell selections, they are a little different from the norm but suit my playstyle perfectly.
Spells Level 1: Ice Dagger; Identify; Negative Energy Ray; Protection from Alignment; Mage Armor
Level 2: Balagarn's Iron Horn Endurance; Owl’s Wisdom; Cats Grace; Melf's Acid Arrow
Level 3: Gust of Wind; Vampiric Touch; Acid Breath; Displacement (also not breachable, no somatic compenent)
Level 4: Elemental shield; Ice Storm; Improved Invisiblity(can't be breached!); Wall of Fire
Level 5: Ball lightning; Cone of Cold; Energy buffer; Firebrand
Level 6: Tenser’s Transformation; Ethereal visage; Chain Lightning
Level 7: Finger of death; Great Thunderclap; Bigby’s Grasping Hand
Level 8: Greater sanctuary; Horrid wilting; Premonition
Level 9: Wail of the Banshee; Meteor swarm; Power Word Kill
Note that I don't have any breach or dispel spells, I have to rely on mordenkainen's scrolls made by my wizard to drop SR and strip buffs. I also dropped IGMS because it is only needed on dachy or moad, and I have wizards for that.
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Post by Scotty the Man on Sept 23, 2007 18:16:26 GMT
Ugh , I can't decide which mage(wiz/sorc) I should use for survivability!! Can someone give me pros and cons for the wiz and the sorc please? I would appreciate it
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Post by cronodevir on Sept 24, 2007 1:53:02 GMT
I'm Getting Barrage/Death To Magic...but, for 3rd, should i get Wall, Balor or Contingency?
Some say Balor is more useful, because it can be used anywhere, and wall is only useful in hell, some say i won't find a party for hell if i don't have wall, and no one has mentioned contingency, which is , i think, the best one to choose.
Also, go with sorc, don't have to memorize spells or learn them, and as a sorc you can remove spells you don't want, and a sorcv uses cha for spells, not int
There are no pros for wiz, i think its a pretty much obsolete class, lol.
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Post by chirikov on Sept 24, 2007 2:40:46 GMT
sorc probably gets better survivability than wiz, since a single pally level will send your saves skyrocketing. ac-wise, theyre both pretty much on par (ie it will never be high enough to make much of a difference). both will depend on ethereal visage to survive melee for the most part. wiz gets more buffs, but if his memorized buffs run out hes screwed until rest (sorc just trades an offensive spell for another buff)
in terms of number of spells and power, they are both about equal right now, but it looks like sorcs will be getting more +slots gear while wiz will get to boost damage using spellcraft/lore (sorc can too but the points are harder to get)
wiz will get a few more feats than sorc thanks to a pre-epic benefit, allowing them to take an extra epic spell focus. wizards can also specialize in a school for +2 dc on any spells for that school (the extra slot per spell level is negligible). the ability to scribe some choice scrolls (mind blank, bbod, gust of wind, greater sanc, etc.) and spread them around makes them party-friendly as well
in my experience, sorc seems a bit easier to play than wiz because of the spellcasting flexibility, as when youre playing wizard youll need to know the areas well enough to keep your spellbook properly organized (it also takes a lot of time when replacing any significant number of spells). wizard however allows for much more experimentation, especially with all the new spell updates. if youre patient, wiz a good choice (especially as youll want to hang around the back of the party), otherwise sorc might be better
crono: i find that typically on a run youll either almost never die, meaning you dont need contingency, or youll die a lot, meaning contingency doesnt help. imo its mildly useful if you plan on dragging lowbies through the early runs with a rock-solid build, but otherwise you probably want something else
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Post by cronodevir on Sept 24, 2007 5:59:56 GMT
HRm, true, but what about balor or wall...what i am understanding is....in temrs of useabiltiy
Wall = Only Useful in Hell Balor = Useful everywhere but hell.
Dunno which to get, people say i will only do hell runs by 60.....then again, i may get to 60, and not be doing many hell runs at all, and now i have a wasted epic. Not to mention wall is an obstical, a thing in the way. Other than the ocasional traping of a boss...what use is there other than to save my own ass? Also, i have never bene to hell, but i imagen 95% of the fighting in hell is not done against a boss, but a large group of monsters. I don't see how wall could be beneficial.
Also, what about 9th spells..i heard weird will be useless, because of low dc, and wail jsut palin doesn't work there, so i amd left with bigbys and meteor storm....what else should i get?
I am not too worried about debuffing or dispelling others, i am concentrating on being as purely offensive and self buffing as possiable, and still being hell viable.
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Post by Scotty the Man on Sept 24, 2007 14:17:42 GMT
sorc probably gets better survivability than wiz, since a single pally level will send your saves skyrocketing. ac-wise, theyre both pretty much on par (ie it will never be high enough to make much of a difference). both will depend on ethereal visage to survive melee for the most part. wiz gets more buffs, but if his memorized buffs run out hes screwed until rest (sorc just trades an offensive spell for another buff) Well, if the wiz runs out of spells, he/she can just use the scrolls for backup ;D . But on the other hand, wizzes are a pain because, they have to prepare spells before entering an area (which you said b4), have to cast buffs(same goes for sorcs) and the party members will likely to say "gmw fw keen plz" (also the same for the sorc). So as a result, the wizards would have a hard time than the sorcerers.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 24, 2007 16:20:51 GMT
sorc probably gets better survivability than wiz, That was incorrect even before this became incorrect for wizards: Funky
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Post by cronodevir on Sept 27, 2007 4:03:02 GMT
HRm, true, but what about balor or wall...what i am understanding is....in temrs of useabiltiy Wall = Only Useful in Hell Balor = Useful everywhere but hell. Dunno which to get, people say i will only do hell runs by 60.....then again, i may get to 60, and not be doing many hell runs at all, and now i have a wasted epic. Not to mention wall is an obstical, a thing in the way. Other than the ocasional traping of a boss...what use is there other than to save my own ass? Also, i have never bene to hell, but i imagen 95% of the fighting in hell is not done against a boss, but a large group of monsters. I don't see how wall could be beneficial. Also, what about 9th spells..i heard weird will be useless, because of low dc, and wail jsut palin doesn't work there, so i amd left with bigbys and meteor storm....what else should i get? I am not too worried about debuffing or dispelling others, i am concentrating on being as purely offensive and self buffing as possiable, and still being hell viable.
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Post by borges on Sept 27, 2007 5:47:33 GMT
HRm, true, but what about balor or wall...what i am understanding is....in temrs of useabiltiy Wall = Only Useful in Hell Balor = Useful everywhere but hell. Dunno which to get, people say i will only do hell runs by 60.....then again, i may get to 60, and not be doing many hell runs at all, and now i have a wasted epic. Not to mention wall is an obstical, a thing in the way. Other than the ocasional traping of a boss...what use is there other than to save my own ass? Also, i have never bene to hell, but i imagen 95% of the fighting in hell is not done against a boss, but a large group of monsters. I don't see how wall could be beneficial. Also, what about 9th spells..i heard weird will be useless, because of low dc, and wail jsut palin doesn't work there, so i amd left with bigbys and meteor storm....what else should i get? I am not too worried about debuffing or dispelling others, i am concentrating on being as purely offensive and self buffing as possiable, and still being hell viable. You have gotten some terrible advice. The wall is handy in many different areas, not just the Hells. It is also mandatory for Hells, mostly *because* you will be swarmed from time to time. The balor, not so much (though it is nice to give your party +13 or +14 gmw). Your spells should be driven by the spell foci you chose. Yes, without necro foci, Wail is useless; with no illusion, Weird is terrible. With the requisite foci, each of those spells is very useful in many areas, Hells included. You'll probably be casting Mords from scrolls, so good 9th lvl spells include Energy Drain (with Necro focus), Black Blade (longer duration than on scrolls), and Time Stop (useful at times, hard to get scrolls).
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Post by chirikov on Sept 28, 2007 5:10:32 GMT
sorc probably gets better survivability than wiz, Funky the broken quote makes it a little harder to understand, but youre saying that a) sorc and wiz are about equal for survivability (or wiz gets better) and b) can get their ac high enough to make a difference? sorc with pally splash will always beat wiz saves unless they spent a ton on save feats (and i dont know of any wiz builds that do that either), hence more survivability, although the stat-based checks in hells makes this less important target ac for tanking in hells is roughly 130 as i recall, and a caster can only expect to hit between 100-110, unless using one of those caster shields. unless those give a higher ac than i remember, its probably still not enough to be very useful. on the other hand, with the craft armor bonus wiz does have a slight advantage in ac
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Post by cathedralmaster on Sept 28, 2007 5:20:25 GMT
target ac for tanking in hells is roughly 130 as i recall, and a caster can only expect to hit between 100-110, unless using one of those caster shields. unless those give a higher ac than i remember, its probably still not enough to be very useful. on the other hand, with the craft armor bonus wiz does have a slight advantage in ac My wizard hits 122 ac without girding, at double demigod it will hit 124. With girding that's what? 128?
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Post by Yomi on Sept 28, 2007 8:03:41 GMT
One advantage sorcs have over wizards for new players is you have full access to all your spells. Obviously you don't have the wide choice of which ones those are that a wizard has, but I've often been playing a wizard and ended up with lots of spells X and Y when what I really needed now was spell Z. It simplifies a lot of things -- that is, your tough decisions are made when sitting at the office or at the altar of legends, rather than when the rest of the party is itching to get going and doesn't want to wait 5 minutes for you to dither over what spells are best. If you're experienced and know the area, and/or you have boatloads of caster gear so have huge numbers of slots -- then wizards can have an advantage due to their ability to tailor it all to the area. The saves for a sorc/pal/monk, plus evasion, plus possibly quite usable SR if you're a Rakshasa, all combine to help make a sorc more survivable with worse gear or sloppier play.
As for AC, my sorc and wizard aren't much different. My wizard gets 5% more conceal since he went pure and also gains +15 premonition. My wizard used to do illithids all the time by himself with a 90 AC, mainly relying on 90% conceal, lots of damage reduction, and killing stuff quickly. With caster shields they're hitting 100-109. With a monk splash and craft armor I suppose that could go up some more. Not many casters will be hitting 120. As for the "target ac for tanking in hells is roughly 130", that's not with 90% conceal. If you do get up in the 120 AC range with caster concealment and protections, that's huge, especially as you're not on the front lines all the time.
Personally I almost never use the epic wall outside of Hells, but I know quite a few people that do all the time and swear by it. There is a non-Hells run where the epic wall is an integral part of the strategy for almost all groups. In Hells, as others have pointed out, it's often used throughout the run, not just against the boss. A Wizard generally is going to have an easier time picking since it's not too hard to get 5 epics with Illithid, whereas a Sorc is probably only going to get 3 unless you use Radiance. Balor's handy but wouldn't be my first choice (though he's getting upgraded) -- not over Starfire at least.
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Post by zerragon on Sept 28, 2007 8:09:43 GMT
Lol !!!, sounds like a busy weekend for you buddy
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Post by FunkySwerve on Oct 1, 2007 2:33:42 GMT
sorc probably gets better survivability than wiz, Funky the broken quote makes it a little harder to understand, but youre saying that a) sorc and wiz are about equal for survivability (or wiz gets better) and b) can get their ac high enough to make a difference? sorc with pally splash will always beat wiz saves unless they spent a ton on save feats (and i dont know of any wiz builds that do that either), hence more survivability, although the stat-based checks in hells makes this less important target ac for tanking in hells is roughly 130 as i recall, and a caster can only expect to hit between 100-110, unless using one of those caster shields. unless those give a higher ac than i remember, its probably still not enough to be very useful. on the other hand, with the craft armor bonus wiz does have a slight advantage in ac Fixed the quote. I'm saying that even before the recent changes giving some wizzies almost tankable ac, the wizards I've seen deep in the hells were more survivable, despite saves, I suspect largely due to the fact that they HADN'T splashed, and had very nice soak. Now, of course, you can get the additional soak via focus...but wizards still have the edge, due to ac. Funky
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Post by chirikov on Oct 1, 2007 2:59:18 GMT
i see... guess i better get back to work on my wiz (it got held up with all the reincarnation stuff
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