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Post by mrbadexample on Dec 3, 2006 14:40:38 GMT
I decided I'd try to make my first build instead of going by what others have done and copying. I also wanted to do a cleric for first time and put in some WM for added punch. I've done test builds of this with a minotaur and a Stinger. I went with the Stinger finally because of the free feat of Spring Attack. So with out further ado here is my build please if you can give me any help with it to make it better I would appreciate it. Both Bases races are human
Subrace: Stinger Subrace bonus: STR +4, DEX +2, CON +2, WIS -2, CHA -2, free feat: Spring Attack, increased base movement rate - fast, able to walk on quicksand, increases character size to large
Starting Stats (Racial Mod)[Final] STR 14 (18) [46] DEX 11 (13) [13] CON 14 (16) [16] INT 13 (13) [13] WIS 16 (14) [19] CHA 8 (6) [6] Domains: Earth/Trickery Alignment: Anything Lawfull for monk Stat Bonus: First 2 stat bonuses WIS, rest STR
Level Progression: 1-15 Cleric/16-22 WM/23-39 Cleric/40 Monk
Skill Points: Max Con on Cleric lvls. Max Discp on Monk/WM, 4 Intimidate at lvl 15. Max Tumble on Monk lvl
Pre-Epic Feats: 1 - Expertise/Toughness 3 - Exotic Weapon Prof. 6 - Weapon Focus Scythe 9 - Dodge 12 - Mobility 15 - Whirlwind (+4 ranks in Intimate here for WM) 18- Improved Critical
Minotaur Variation "Minotaur" (secret subrace) STR +4, DEX -2, WIS +2, CHA -4, free feat: Power Attack, increases character size to large STR 14 (18) [46] DEX 14 (12) [13] CON 14 (14) [14] INT 14 (14) [14] WIS 14 (16) [19] CHA 8 (4) [4] Stat Bonus: First stat bonuses DEX, rest STR
Pre-Epic Feats: 1 - Dodge / Mobility 3 - Exotic Weapon Prof 6 - Weapon Focus Scythe 9 - Spring Attack 12 - Expertise 15 - Whirlwind (+4 ranks in Intimidate for WM) 18 - Improved Critical
Post-Epic Feats: 21 - Epic Weapon Focus 24 - Epic Prowess 27 - Great Str (Stinger) or Toughness (Minotaur) 30 - Epic Reflexes / Great Wis I 33 - Epic Fortitude / Great Wis II 36 - Great Str / Great Wis III 39 - Great Str / Armor Skin 40 - Max out Tumble/discipline
Legendary Level Feats: 42 Great Str 45 Great Str 48 Great Str 51 Great Str 54 Great Str 57 Great Str 60 Great Str
Edit/Added: Added in suggestions by TarChul, Bort, Kaldair, and Arielt
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Post by scarfinger68 on Dec 4, 2006 6:53:19 GMT
I was wondering if u can read one the the epic books for a school of magic. I think u can but I am not positive. If you can have you thought about what book you would read?
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Post by mrbadexample on Dec 4, 2006 11:05:44 GMT
You can any read spell focus book. And the book that you read is personal preference. I would do a toss up between miracle and girdling of the faithfull. At the moment I can't remember the schoools they belong to
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Post by kaldair on Dec 5, 2006 17:22:58 GMT
Hi Mr. Bad One slight correction - you need to change your Cleric levels to 31 instead of 30, since you went from 3 CoT to 2 Monk. Another line of thought - This character is similar in concept to a staffmaster in that you are using spells to self-buff, not to deal spell damage. Based on my foray into the character levels of the 50's recently, I'm wondering about the Great Wisdoms? Since you won't need the DC boost, all I see atm is an increase in AC from the Monk class for the investment. Since the build will buff & have great AC & AB, I'm wondering about changing these to Great Con pre-LL, and perhaps Great Str post-LL? Post-LL feats are a toss-up in my mind, since your AB will be high from buffs, but the Great Str will also increase damage a bit, which is also a good thing. The more I play in the 50's, the more I like saves, so Epic Saves are a good choice too ... Might also consider the DR feats since you could get the Con up there to qualify for them .... Tinkering a bit for personal preferences, but I think this build looks solid Kaldair
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Post by bort on Dec 5, 2006 18:59:24 GMT
Quick thought - you'll want your CON to end up as an even number, or you're throwing hitpoints away, as hitpoint and fortitude increases from CON are every two points. The same goes for AB (STR or DEX, depending on build). Personally I like at least 16 CON, 18 is better.
Also, with the inclusion of WM it looks like you're going for a melee focused build with some buffs and added extras?
If that is the case, bear in mind that you won't get Monk AC Bonus based on your Wisdom while wearing Heavy Plate and Sheild, which I think you'll be doing if you want to survive for any length of time. So you don't need lots of Wisdom for that. 19 Wisdom gets you access to level 9 spells - particularly Undeaths Eternal Foe - a great buff spell - but for a Heavy Plate wearing, Scythe swinging melee cleric, I'd take your Wisdom to 20 at the absolute maximum, just because 20 will give you another +1 to your Will over just getting 19.
I'd take Armor Skin as a priority feat before anything else, Keep Epic Weapon Focus, probably get Epic Prowess too and some Epic Save feats if your saves are lacking. After that, you'll want Great Strength in pairs for increased AB and Damage. Extend Spell tends to lose it's merits once you get to 40 and beyond, although it would give you the possibility of having more of your favourite buffs (cast normally and cast extended). I'm not sure how useful Silent Spell would be for a melee cleric but I suppose you could double up your harms and earthquakes..
I heard from someone that Freedom of movement is bugged and requires at least 3 monk levels to work at all, (can't find this in writing unfortunately) so you might want to go 30 cleric, 7 wm, 3 monk. You wouldn't get the basic 10% increase in speed from Monk Endurance (now called Monk Speed i think) at 3 levels of Monk, because you'd be wearing Heavy Plate and Shield.
I'd recommend trying something similar to the above in the Halls of Training and see how the AB comes out before and after buffs.
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Post by mrbadexample on Dec 6, 2006 12:08:02 GMT
Kaldair & Bort,
you are both correct I am using Cleric buffs only with maybe a attack spells if need be, so I want to have the Great wisdoms for the lvl 9 spells. The Monk lvls are added soley for Tumble AC I didn't see anything for monk beyond lv 2 that was any real use to me, all though the speed boost could be of some use to run up and attack foes. The extend spells was to increase durations of my buffs but like you said at 40 or beyond they would last a good chunk of time on their own, maybe I coud replace my meta magic feets with great STR or CON for the increase in damage or HP. Would I possible be better off using a different subrace like Minotaur that had a STR/WIS boost ro save on the great wisdoms?
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Post by bort on Dec 6, 2006 13:29:14 GMT
Mino isn't as tasty as Stinger but it could work. Epic Prowess gives you +1 AB for one feat. It takes two Great Strength feats for a +1 to AB. So I'd take Epic Prowess before taking Great Strength if I was you. Did a quick tester - didn't have room for the Metamagic feats.. You'll get 3 Cleric Bonus feats with 30 levels of Cleric, with the only option I got being Great Wisdom. So your Wisdom only needs to be 16 before then (14 base with mino), as you'll be forced to take Great Wisdom III. p.s. Don't forget the Character sheet doesn't count the +20 cap to AB, so don't be fooled by what it says. (use combat log) My tester had a fairly solid AB of 59 with Divine Power, Battletide, Gmw, Prayer, Aid and Bless (would be 65AB with maxed STR). You could potentially have an interesting alternative to the Staffmaster here. The AB looks similar @ 40, dmg should be very nice with a good scythe & you get to wear heavy plate and a shield for better AC than a STR Staffmaster. As for defensive spells, you don't have anything in the same league as Ethereal Visage or Premonition, but you could still get Stoneskin and 35% conceal (see below) AND 2 stacking Regeneration spells! Not bad. Unlike a staffmaster, you won't be completely screwed if you get hit with Mord, Dispell or Spell Breach, as you'll still have your Armor and Shield to fall back on. Domains: Earth Domain gives Energy Buffer and Stoneskin, Trickery Domain gives Improved Invis (which scales to 35% conceal - worth it, imo). You don't need Wall of Fire over Stoneskin, and you don't need Aura of Vitality or Cats Grace if you've got the gear to max out your stats already. Just my thoughts
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Post by mrbadexample on Dec 6, 2006 15:30:37 GMT
Sounds good to me bort, I'll do a quick test in a little bit, also did you use the heavy armor feet or are you assuming the use of the claok of worldlyness? But I also think I'l lstick with stinger for the extra feat saved and the nice boosts it gives
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Post by bort on Dec 6, 2006 17:32:03 GMT
Sounds good to me bort, I'll do a quick test in a little bit, also did you use the heavy armor feet or are you assuming the use of the claok of worldlyness? But I also think I'l lstick with stinger for the extra feat saved and the nice boosts it gives Pretty sure Clerics can wear Heavy Armor straight away. Wiki says: I don't have Stinger, so could only test with Mino btw
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Post by mrbadexample on Dec 6, 2006 19:01:10 GMT
Ran build though with your thoughts Bort in the tester. in order to get CON at an even number I had to use the first stat boost to get it from 15 to 16. I dropped the metamagic feets in favor of saves and my saves are actually pretty good unbuffed around 25-27 and my AB will jump form 37 to 58 when buffed with cleric spells with 4 attacks per round. What I like about the War domain powers if an even higher AB, but it is only for a short time. Build still has me taking 5 Epic Wisdoms because of the WIS hit from the Subrace
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Post by Tar'Chul on Dec 8, 2006 22:29:28 GMT
uhm, why 2 monk and not 1?
32 cleric / 7 wm / 1 monk would mean one more cleric bonus feat. am i missing something obvious?
and your starting stats seem to be far from optimal. instead of going for 17 wis 13 con 10 str, i would go 14 str 15 wis 14 con. (calculated out of my head, so feel free to correct me)
so even if you have to chose wisdom on lvl 4 and 8, you still get two more str and one more con out of it.
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Post by mrbadexample on Dec 9, 2006 1:14:23 GMT
Tar thank you for the info, and yeah this build seems to be far from what I want it to be. but I need at least 19 Wisdom to cast lvl 9 cleric spells. and I loose 2 wisdom with the stinger. So in the end I'd have to take even more WIS and I do not have the Feats for it. That and for WM I need to have 13 dex and 13 Int at start to take dodge/Expertise.
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Post by arielt on Dec 9, 2006 11:27:48 GMT
Well... How about these builds? They're all Cleric 32 / WM 7/ Monk 1
Stinger STR 14 (18) [46] DEX 11 (13) [13] CON 14 (16) [16] INT 13 (13) [13] WIS 16 (14) [19] CHA 8 (6) [6]
Pre-Epic: (Cleric 15/WM 5) +2 Wis, +3 Str 01 Cleric 01 - Expertise/Toughness 03 Cleric 03 - Exotic Weapon Prof. 04 Cleric 04 - +1 WIS 06 Cleric 06 - Weapon Focus Scythe 08 Cleric 08 - +1 WIS 09 Cleric 09 - Dodge 12 Cleric 12 - Mobility, +1 STR 15 Cleric 15 - Whirlwind (+4 ranks in Intimate here for WM) 16 Weapon Master 01 - +1 STR 18 Weapon Master 03 - Improved Critical 20 Weapon Master 05 - +1 STR
Minotaur STR 14 (18) [46] DEX 14 (12) [13] CON 14 (14) [14] INT 14 (14) [14] WIS 14 (16) [19] CHA 8 (4) [4]
Pre-Epic: (Cleric 15/WM 5) +1 Dex, +4 Str 1 Cleric 01 - Dodge / Mobility 3 Cleric 03 - Exotic Weapon Prof 4 Cleric 04 - +1 DEX 6 Cleric 06 - Weapon Focus Scythe 8 Cleric 08 - +1 STR 9 Cleric 09 - Spring Attack 12 Cleric 12 - Expertise, +1 STR 15 Cleric 15 - Whirlwind (+4 ranks in Intimidate for WM) 16 Weapon Master 01 - +1 STR 18 Weapon Master 03 - Improved Critical 20 Weapon Master 05 - +1 STR
Epic: All stat boosts into STR (+5), +8 Str, +3 Wis total 21 Weapon Master 06 - Epic Weapon Focus 22 Weapon Master 07 -(Last Weapon Master level) 24 Cleric 17 - Epic Prowess 27 Cleric 20 - Great Str (Stinger) or Toughness (Minotaur) 30 Cleric 23 - Epic Reflexes / Great Wis I 33 Cleric 26 - Epic Fortitude / Great Wis II 36 Cleric 29 - Great Str / Great Wis III 39 Cleric 32 - Great Str / Armor Skin 40 Monk 1 - Stat Dump for tumble/discipline
LL: All stat boosts into STR (+10), +17 Str total 42 Great Str 45 Great Str 48 Great Str 51 Great Str 54 Great Str 57 Great Str 60 Great Str
Stinger Pros: 60 extra HP, earlier toughness (so +2 HP/level for a while by comparison, +1 fort Minotaur Pros: +1 Skill Point/level, power attack
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Post by mrbadexample on Dec 9, 2006 13:30:41 GMT
Wow, Arielt those look to be some good work ups, but I can't find where your putting the last 2 lvl or WM. I only see WM lvl 5 at CL 21. are you taking 3 lvls of WM from 21-23?
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Post by arielt on Dec 9, 2006 21:36:12 GMT
Yeah, sorry. I didn't do a full layout. The WM levels are all right in a row... Actualy, I think I'll just edit my previous post, there are a couple things that are a little confusing.
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