First Shifter: 29/10/1 Shifter/Druid/Monk

[kdub]

This is my first go at a shifter...I've tried to research as best I could (Sabregirl's build, NWN Wiki, etc..) and this is the best I've come up with:

Edited to incorporate Tyranithixis', Bakchuda's and Sabregirl's suggestions - thanks fellas/gals

Classes: 29/10/1 Shifter/Druid/Monk

Leveling: 5 Druid, 10 Shifter, 5 Druid, 19 Shifter, 1 Monk

Race: Thri-Kreen

Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Stats
Str: 8
Dex: 8(10)
Con: 16
Int: 12(10)
Wis: 18(20)
Cha: 8(6)

Stat Increases: Wisdom through all 60 levels

Feats: Toughness, Luck of Heros, Heavy Armor, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Blind Fighting, Free Feat

Epic Feats: Wisdom (x10), Constitution (x6), Undead, Construct, Outsider, Dragon

Note: Leave as many Wisdoms as possible for Legendary Levels

Skills: Max out Tumble and Discipline on Monk lvl. Max out Concentration. Take at least 1 point in Rogue abilities (can use as Kobold Commando), use other points as you see fit.

Stats at 40
Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 22
Int: 10
Wis: 33
Cha: 6

Stats at 60
Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 22
Int: 10
Wis: 50
Cha: 6

Any feedback? Is all appreciated as I don't really know how to build a shifter. Am I missing any must-have skills or feats?

Hope this is of use to other noobs, and guidance appreciated.

[Bakchuda]

I haven't done a shifter since ancient times, but one thing I do know from this server is that Weapon specialization is a complete waste, both normal and epic. 6 extra damage (if it even stacks, i don't know) of physical per attack is not going to matter at all, except in the case of a WM scyther or something, when the 6 turns to 30 on a crit. Even then, with all of the physical immunities of many creatures, the extra damage is negligble for the high cost of 2 feats. IMO, 2 more points of Con for 60 more hps would probably be better, if there isn't anything else to grab.

And by the way, your leveling progression lists bard, which I'm guessing is a typo for druid.

[tyranlthixis]

couple of things I think you should have done differently

The only two stats that transfer into your forms are wisdom and constitution....everything else is form dependent

Your starting wisdom is too low. It should be completely maxed out from the start. In the case of a +2 wisdom race as thrikreen this means a constitution of 18 + 2 from the race. In the case of a +5 race as fallen angel and doppleganger you should start at 17 + 5 (22), since shifters are not feat poor and the extra wisdom could be spent better as constitution).

High wisdom will help on your mindflayer dc (wisdom dependent), over all armor class, and will get you access to epic forms sooner (especially dragon form)

You SHOULD take as many wisdom feats prelegendary as possible. Low armor class is your biggest problem as a shifter, sooner you can get your non dragon forms above 110 the better. Mind flayer is your best bet in many areas before medusa DC gets more powerful (after lvl 50).

I also noticed that your intelligence is very low and from building a level 60 shifter would say would leave you lacking in the skills department. I don't have my character in front of me, so I'll tell you the minimum later.

Everything else you should dump into constitution. Strength and dexterity are determined by your forms, so are less important

he overall level progression I think is flawed in your build. You must do a minimum of 10 non shifter levels preepic. The ideal for your form dc (especially things like dragon breath) would be 10 druid levels. The problem with that would be your character will be quite fragile until level 37-40. Most people, myself included, do one monk pre epic placing the monk level in the progression so you can take martial or exotic as a feat. You then, in my opinion, must take a monk some point after level 37...40 being the ideal. This allows you to max out tumble to 40 and discipline to as high as you can get it. Anything less in these skills will be a disaster. You character will get rocked by graviters in illithids, for example, if the only discipline is what you can scrape together after level 20. Worse yet, the special effect equipment that normally protect low discipline characters don't work on shifters. Leaving you at the mercy of you low discipline.

The only two builds progressions that work imo are

10 druid/29shifter/1monk
or
9 druid/1monk/29 shifter/1monk

In the feat selection section...
knockdown and improved knockdown are optional. Some of the forms actually have these feats for free and their use in LL areas are minimum.

Weapon finesse is a wasted feat (dragon form strength is fixed at 60) as are the weapon focuses.

Been talking with Sabregirl (my wife) and we've decided to write a shifter build/playing guide, because most people ditch there shifter either before or once they've immortalized them mainly because they don't know how to play or equip them properly....and there are only 3 level 60 shifters in the game and we'd like to see more.


Tyran

[tyranlthixis]

Oh one more thing. When your setting up your base stats you should do first wisdom, then constitution, and then intelligence (for skills points). All others stats are form determined (fixed by the form) and the only thing that transfers is the additional stat bonuses you add through equipment. A dexterity of 8 to 10 would be plenty unless there was some feat you absolutely felt you had to have and you needed the extra dex to meet the requirement. Strength is useless except for improving your carrying capacity.

Tyran

[kdub]

Updated the build with a few changes:

1) Changed my Bard/Druid mix-up
2) Moved Druid lvl to 18 (to take exotic weapon)
3) Made lvl 40 a Monk lvl to Max out Disc and Tumble
4) Took Dex down to 8, Wis up to 18, and Int up to 12 (all pre-subrace)
5) Got rid of W Finesse, W Focus, Imp Crit, and Imp KD (just realized Int is too low). Added Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Free Feat
6) Got rid of Creature Weapon Spec and Epic CWS and added 2 Cons

Follow-up to other suggestions:
1) I would forego the pre-epic Monk lvl, but that would prevent me from getting extra unarmed attacks as dragon. Or am I wrong?
2) I have kept all Con's pre-LL's (rather than taking advice of taking Wisdom ASAP) in order to get full benefit of higher Con.

Thanks for the suggestions fellas.

[sabregirl]

Well overall the changes look good. I believe you can't get improved knockdown without 13 int, and if I recall from my testing, knockdown doesn't appear take into account the giant size of dragon. And when I had it on one of my shifters I could almost never get it to work and I never ended up using anyway - I was normally too busy breathing all over things as a dragon.

Although I think you will get them with one level of monk, I wouldn't worry much about the extra attacks. Your AB, even in dragon form, will be on the edge to get one or two attacks to hit, much less the others. Plus shifters aren't much of meleers anyway, there's almost always better things for you to be doing. Actual melee is usually the last resort when everything else doesn't work.

As to keeping the Con pre-epic - con works retroactively so I don't see the benefit unless you want more HP and less AC/DC earlier, but I spose that's more personal preference - I want to make sure I get all my forms as soon as possible.

-S

[azrael]

I don't think con counts LL when used retroactively in LL unless it has been changed recently, it doesnt count your LL when adding hp. So if you took your last con point (even numbered) at level 60 it would only add 40 hp instead of the the full 60. So to get full benefit of added con, it should be taken pre LL.

[kdub]

Thanks for the thoughts. So it sounds like I should get rid of KD and not worry about how many attacks I have as I'll pretty much never use physical attacks. Based on that, I'm going to make a few modifications to the build.

Also, I've added Concentration as a skill to max - Sabregirl's shifter post listed it as important, so I'll trust her on it!

If I misunderstood, lemme know and I'll flip back to how it was.

[lala]

There was a bug with Knockdown and Improved KD in the past that a lot of players used as an exploit.
Basically the dragon size is much larger than opponents so gains an additional bonus vs the opponent's discipline.

Instead the bug increased the attack bonus when using Knockdown as a larger shape such as a dragon..... was a rather handy bug to hit spawns
Oh why did Bio have to fix this bug

Still I wouldnt like to say how much AB and larger size bonus for a knockdown to work in say legendary areas.
Cheers
Lala