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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 29, 2006 2:40:32 GMT
Rebuilding This Bard As You Are Reading This
*UNDER CONSTRUCTION!*
REBUILDING BARD FROM 10Shadowdancer, 30Bard
to
Something near 38+Bard
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 29, 2006 3:59:37 GMT
I really miss Uncanny Dodge and, to a lesser degree, Imp Evasion on my bard, so this is a good alternative.
There are some changes I would suggest, however...
When using 3/4 or 2/4 AB progressions pre-20, you get better AB if your class levels are a multiple of 4 when you hit 20. Your build has 14 BAB at 20. If you go with 8 Rogue/12 Bard and pick up the other 2 rogue later, you get 15 BAB.
The same game applies to saves, but more complicated (check the manual for the progressions). Rogue has high reflex, while Bard has high reflex AND will. Your build has Fort/Reflex/Will of 6/14/10. All Bard gets you 6/12/12. 4 Rogue/16 Bard is 6/14/11.
Mobility and Spring Attack don't do much if you have a tumble skill check of 15 or better, which any dexer can hit with ease. If you're going to have Mobility in the build, though, I would suggest swapping Rogue out for Shadowdancer (so probably 16 Bard/4 SD/6 SD/14 Bard). In the same 10 levels, you tack on Defensive Roll and Slippery Mind. That opens up Epic Dodge once you get 25 Dex. Epic Dodge and Ethereal Visage would make you virtually untouchable in melee.
Also consider that dex 17 and 18 cost 3 points each at creation. Cha 15 and 16 only cost 2 each. So if you started with dex 16 and cha 16, and took dex for all of your stat points, you would start with 2 more stat points without sacrifice. I'd suggest int so you can max out UMD.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 29, 2006 7:21:49 GMT
I really miss Uncanny Dodge and, to a lesser degree, Imp Evasion on my bard, so this is a good alternative. There are some changes I would suggest, however... When using 3/4 or 2/4 AB progressions pre-20, you get better AB if your class levels are a multiple of 4 when you hit 20. Your build has 14 BAB at 20. If you go with 8 Rogue/12 Bard and pick up the other 2 rogue later, you get 15 BAB. The same game applies to saves, but more complicated (check the manual for the progressions). Rogue has high reflex, while Bard has high reflex AND will. Your build has Fort/Reflex/Will of 6/14/10. All Bard gets you 6/12/12. 4 Rogue/16 Bard is 6/14/11. Mobility and Spring Attack don't do much if you have a tumble skill check of 15 or better, which any dexer can hit with ease. If you're going to have Mobility in the build, though, I would suggest swapping Rogue out for Shadowdancer (so probably 16 Bard/4 SD/6 SD/14 Bard). In the same 10 levels, you tack on Defensive Roll and Slippery Mind. That opens up Epic Dodge once you get 25 Dex. Epic Dodge and Ethereal Visage would make you virtually untouchable in melee. Also consider that dex 17 and 18 cost 3 points each at creation. Cha 15 and 16 only cost 2 each. So if you started with dex 16 and cha 16, and took dex for all of your stat points, you would start with 2 more stat points without sacrifice. I'd suggest int so you can max out UMD. wow man u took that build all over the place, I don't know what to take from what you said really, I only really see minor changes, that could effect the bard song level, which is the whole goal of this build to make a effective 30 level bard. Because 40 level bard just doesn't work right, bard doesn't get epic dodge as a feat. Its not a option. Spring atk was added incase tumble failed, tumble is there for the ac bonus, along with more protection. But I'm going to rethink that tomorrow, maybe some more suggestions on that? Main Question is? Is spring atk worth it, if tumble is 40+?
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 29, 2006 18:10:33 GMT
Spring Attack is not worth it, no.
My main suggestion was to replace Rogue with Shadowdancer, making this 30 Bard/10 Shadowdancer. You lose the 5d6 sneak attack, but get Defensive Roll (which allows you to take Epic Dodge) and Slippery Mind.
My second suggestion was to keep your pre-20 class levels to multiples of 4, for the best bonuses. If you go with 16 Bard/4 Shadowdancer pre-20 and 6 Shadowdancer/14 Bard for 21-40, you gain +1 AB and +1 Will over your original build, without changing the final class levels.
My third suggestion is to start out with 16 dex and 16 cha, taking dex at levels 12 and 16. You get 2 stat points you can put into str, wis, or int, and your final dex and cha are the same.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 29, 2006 20:21:15 GMT
Wow man thanks for the help, I'll probly look over the build again and rebuild it. This was a build I used for a epic module that I played, I changed a few things, but obviously I missed some good points u had there.
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Post by Phantanya on Apr 30, 2006 14:58:59 GMT
Arrrrrrg....! Help me! Explain this ab progression thingy I am not the fastest horse on the track so use small words and use graphs if you have to. The ab on everyone of my builds sucks cannal water and I would love to know how to pump it up. How does taking class lvls on multiples of 4 help? Why is it crucial to take certaing classes at certaing lvls? I don't get it Thank you in advance Phantanya PS...Zero...what is your little avatar a picture of...I cant make it out and it is driving me crazy. Can you blow it up on your home page?
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 30, 2006 15:29:39 GMT
I'm going to rebuild the build today, since I have the day off. The picture is The Guardian Averial of Dragon hidden behind tall grass. I figured since she was druid she'd be always hiding in the wild. So that is what the picture is of, lol. Its only a temp picture for now
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Apr 30, 2006 17:05:57 GMT
The Entire Build has been redone and everything should be as perfect as possible, any suggestion please comment!
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Post by mishimayukio on Apr 30, 2006 17:23:29 GMT
Arrrrrrg....! Help me! Explain this ab progression thingy I am not the fastest horse on the track so use small words and use graphs if you have to. The ab on everyone of my builds sucks cannal water and I would love to know how to pump it up. How does taking class lvls on multiples of 4 help? Why is it crucial to take certaing classes at certaing lvls? I don't get it Thank you in advance Phantanya PS...Zero...what is your little avatar a picture of...I cant make it out and it is driving me crazy. Can you blow it up on your home page? I'll try to explain this as best as I can. fighter, paladin, barb, ranger, BG, CoT, WM, AA, and DD are full BAB classes, they get 1 BAB every pre- epic level rogue, bard, cleric, monk, druid, assassin, RDD, SD, HS, and shifter are 3/4 AB classes, they get no AB on the first level, then 1 AB on the next 3, repeat wiz, sorc, and PM are 1/2 AB classes, they get no AB on the first level, and the, get 1 AB on the next, repeat. My 25 rogue/8 fighter/7 WM build for example: I wanted to take the absolute minimum rogue levels pre-epic to max BAB, while leaving some fighter left for epic bonus feats. I took 8 rogue levels (6 BAB), 5 fighter levels (5 BAB), and 7 WM (7 BAB) for a total of 18. Now if I took 9 rogue levels pre-epic instead I would only get 27 BAB because that 9th rogue level didn't add anything. To max AB, you want to take full BAB classes in any combination . Then you want to take 3/4 AB classes in groups of multiples of 4 (doesn't have to be in a row, as long as they are a multiple of 4 before 21). Unless making a caster, you want to avoid taking 1/2 AB classes before 20 entirely, (although 1 or 2 wizard levels wont hurt much if you are going AA.) but if you have to, take them in pairs. (AB isn't the only thing to consider when planning a build's pre-epic progression. You also should consider trying to max/even out saves. But thats a whole other story that I don't feel I could explain well at the moment, maybe after I wake up in 8 hours.)
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Post by hiryuu on Apr 30, 2006 17:26:34 GMT
Arrrrrrg....! Help me! Explain this ab progression thingy Your final BAB, base saves, and number of attacks are determined by wha you do before level 20. Epic progression is the same for all classes, so mix and match however you like up there. There are 3 different AB progressions, repeating in blocks of 4 class levels, that depend on how melee-oriented the class is. "fighter": 1/1/1/1 (full progression) "rogue": 0/1/1/1 (3/4 progression) "wizard": 0/1/0/1 (2/4 or 1/2 progression) The best level 20 BAB you can have is 20 (all melee tank, such as Fighter/Ranger). If you add 1 Rogue (19 Fighter/1 Rogue), you get a 0 for that rogue level, leaving you 19 AB. The next 3 Rogue levels get 1, so 16 Fighter/4 Rogue is also 19 AB. Add a 5th Rogue, and you get 18 AB. You get an extra attack at pre-20 BAB of 6, 11, and 16. That's why Mish's Bard has 16 Bard/4 Paladin for the first 20. You get 0 AB at bard 1, 5, 9, and 13, for a pre-20 BAB of 16 and 4 attacks. With 17 Bard, you get another 0, which would be BAB of 15, and only 3 attacks. Saves are more complicated. Each class has high and low saves, which you can guess from the class. Rogue likes reflex, Clerics like Fort and Will, Fighters like Fort, etc. Low: 0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0/1/0/0 High: 2/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1/0/1 As you might guess, that +2 to start the high line means you usually get the best saves if you involve all 3 classes before level 20. From there, you need to balance it with your BAB progression to get a build that works well for you. The tables in the manual break down the AB progression and saves for each class.
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Post by mishimayukio on Apr 30, 2006 17:36:59 GMT
Ouch, hiryuu totally owned my explanation with his. I'm a lot better at understanding the rules for myself than trying to explain them to someone else.
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Post by doomsdaybringer on Apr 30, 2006 18:06:56 GMT
Ouch, hiryuu totally owned my explanation with his. I'm a lot better at understanding the rules for myself than trying to explain them to someone else. i like your better....hiryuu's is little bit too wordly
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Post by hiryuu on May 1, 2006 3:36:03 GMT
The revised build looks very nice. Two minor notes on it: * Take Epic Fort (or maybe Will), rather than Reflex. You will be just fine in the reflex department. Fort is good in that more deadly things use a Fort save. Will is good in that propping that up is the only reason you need to pay any attention to your Wisdom.
* You probably already know this, but the base races are never, in any situation, your best choice for a build. Siren is an obvious choice for Bards, but Satyr and Shadow Elf are open subraces with decent benefits.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on May 1, 2006 5:20:23 GMT
The revised build looks very nice. Two minor notes on it: * Take Epic Fort (or maybe Will), rather than Reflex. You will be just fine in the reflex department. Fort is good in that more deadly things use a Fort save. Will is good in that propping that up is the only reason you need to pay any attention to your Wisdom. * You probably already know this, but the base races are never, in any situation, your best choice for a build. Siren is an obvious choice for Bards, but Satyr and Shadow Elf are open subraces with decent benefits. I was picking the best for the human's because I built this build around a human build. So I wanted to keep that extra feat. Since you get true seeing in the end anyways. I guess I'll add in personal prefrence with the epic reflex thing, I'll edit that now.
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Post by jillybean on Jun 8, 2006 0:55:40 GMT
I started following this build from level 9, so although I have had to make minor adjustments on feats and skill points, I really like it so far.
Two questions: 1. What is Weapon Focus (w/e)? I mean what does "w/e" stand for?
2. What weapons are you using with this build? I notice you don't take either martial or exotic feats but all the Ambi/two weapon fighting ones so I assume you expect the character to melee when appropriate and not just cast spells or volley bolt. Without the extra weapons to choose from though I am having a hard time finding something good, to put it simply.
Thanks again for a great build!
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