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Post by ubernewb on Nov 10, 2008 23:37:46 GMT
Even being relatively new to HG I can tell that this is a 101. Would be great to see the advanced version.
Once you get past character builds and general mod secrets, HG seems to be all about tactics. I would go so far as to say HG is not even a role-playing game, but instead a small unit tactical game with unprecedented unit customization depth.
Yet most pre-hells groups seem to neglect small unit tactics altogether. Playing the best enemy territory mods (for example) tactics are second nature. It is a FP tactical game. Master the tactics and you rack up "godlike!" kills every single time, despite the fact that unit build depth is nil compared to something like HG.
Regardless of the game, the tactics- the overall strategy is essentially the same- armor serves to both protect indirect fire units, and divide enemy units so they can't work together, creating smaller enemy groups which are more easily contained and destroyed. The real damage always comes from indirect fire- artillery if its a more modern game, and spell casters if its a fantasy type "rpg" game.
It would be fun to talk more small unit tactics in HG terms. However, it is difficult enough to get most people to pull correctly much less getting everyone to stick to any kind of party combat formation.
Edit: If I could get a group together committed to tactical play, it would be allot of fun to form a guild around that principle.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 8:10:12 GMT
That's a very astute observation.
I think you'll find no shortage of tactics in runs with a group of players who know their way around their toons and the mod.
This is a large part of the guild scene on HG - groups of folks who know their roles in the unit and fulfil them.
I've been lucky enough to participate in a few runs like that (mostly post LLs). They're awesome and usually extremely trouble free.
Area prep (Fog, Stonehold, CD) Tanks spawn/block Ruiners pick out high threats Casters debuff (curse, natures balance, prayer, BT, WoD etc) Insta killers pick off the trash mobs (turners, drowners, wailers, weirders, imploders, assassins & rangers) Damagers (AAs, high output melee builds) start to work on the big targets Crowd control immobilizes the long range targets (spinagons, ice fiends, raks) Specialists get to work - imploding machines, fisting PF/Males, disintegrating, enervating etc Tanks clean up
There are a few more steps and when its flowing well it all seems to happen at once .... but basically I find that guild runs are highly organized tactically and as such tend to be VERY smooth.
Now to get my guildmates to move west a couple of timezones.
-silver
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2008 3:53:27 GMT
That's a very astute observation. I think you'll find no shortage of tactics in runs with a group of players who know their way around their toons and the mod. This is a large part of the guild scene on HG - groups of folks who know their roles in the unit and fulfil them. I've been lucky enough to participate in a few runs like that (mostly post LLs). They're awesome and usually extremely trouble free. Area prep (Fog, Stonehold, CD) Tanks spawn/block Ruiners pick out high threats Casters debuff (curse, natures balance, prayer, BT, WoD etc) Insta killers pick off the trash mobs (turners, drowners, wailers, weirders, imploders, assassins & rangers) Damagers (AAs, high output melee builds) start to work on the big targets Crowd control immobilizes the long range targets (spinagons, ice fiends, raks) Specialists get to work - imploding machines, fisting PF/Males, disintegrating, enervating etc Tanks clean up There are a few more steps and when its flowing well it all seems to happen at once .... but basically I find that guild runs are highly organized tactically and as such tend to be VERY smooth. Now to get my guildmates to move west a couple of timezones. -silver same user as ubernewb.... I believe that was you on the DB run last night-unless there are more silverandblack's. Breaking down what you are saying by a run we were both on- it seemed to flow somewhat like that until the ploder and other tank broke away from the party. Big lack of instadeath casters towards the end. 5 assassins in the group, we tanked the end out. But it was fun. One thing I've noticed overall is that people seem timid about being vocal. Yet when given direction, most people seem to follow through.
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Post by wodgard on Nov 17, 2008 0:23:41 GMT
Taunt can be a tanks friend as well.. Even with no skill put into it.. It has for me sometimes been the only way i had to draw the attention of the beastie i was trying to get off one of the fragile's.. Has sometimes helped when someone has over done it and got in a death loop with the beast(soon as there raised the beast turns back to them)
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Post by Trazik on Nov 17, 2008 7:22:29 GMT
I am seeing some disturbingly weak tankage lately in hell. Perhaps I can make a few points and repeat others:
- stoned mobs are effectively neutred (erinyes, kockrachons, spinagons, etc.) and can do nothing, not even their special attacks. Leave them alone and beat on the un-neutrailzed mobs first, and kill these last. You do a grave disservice to the party by fighting a stoned Spinagon while ignoring a malebranche or pit fiend.
- quickslot Player Tool 2. Use it. Actively look for party members needing it. This is to be used on KDed party members. It is found in the radial menu (right click + special abilities + class menu).
- hold the line. "Blocking" is an important function which prevents monsters getting to the casters who frequently situate themselves towards the back. Some melee characters, of course, need to move around alot (rogues, monks) but others need to be brick walls.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 9:09:00 GMT
I am seeing some disturbingly weak tankage lately in hell. Perhaps I can make a few points and repeat others: - stoned mobs are effectively neutred (erinyes, kockrachons, spinagons, etc.) and can do nothing, not even their special attacks. Leave them alone and beat on the un-neutrailzed mobs first, and kill these last. You do a grave disservice to the party by fighting a stoned Spinagon while ignoring a malebranche or pit fiend. - quickslot Player Tool 2. Use it. Actively look for party members needing it. This is to be used on KDed party members. It is found in the radial menu (right click + special abilities + class menu). - hold the line. "Blocking" is an important function which prevents monsters getting to the casters who frequently situate themselves towards the back. Some melee characters, of course, need to move around alot (rogues, monks) but others need to be brick walls. This makes me really look forward to hells runs. I think it speaks to my point in my post about being vocal. People need to be vocal. IMO not just in hell but from 40 on at least. The vets shouldn't flinch at telling newer players how its done. The easier areas/levels are like training for the harder ones.
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Post by Trazik on Nov 17, 2008 11:12:34 GMT
To a certain extent, Overdriver, people are expected to know these things. I know that sounds harsh but it is the truth. Allowances are normally made in Avernus and Dis, and just about anywhere if you say this is your first run in <Layer X> but I see too many undeserving people in Minauros and beyond ... I find I need to be a jerk at times and turn away people whom I know are not ready for the run I am calling. Thought of a few more ... 1) Take the time to equip yourself, not only minimally, but to-the-teeth. - Make sure you have those Ssithrak, Uroboros, Myconid and other weapons as back-ups, and especially for those mobs that are hurt badly by them. - I won't post spoilers, but do you know which mobs are badly hurt by Elec/Div -- which is what Ssithrak weapons do. If you want to be a reliable hell tank, called on to do the big runs, earn the chance to roll for BURs and other good loot, and be the type of hell-runner that people want in their parties, then you should learn which gear should be used and when, and adapt as the circumstances change (oh damn, lost your shield to slag or limbo? I feel bad for you, mate, honest, but what are you going to do about it so we can finish the run?). - backup shield(s) and armour(s). - confusion and fear immunity items. 2) Make sure you have consumables for emergencies. Granted, it takes time to acquire these, but they are invaluable when things do not go according to plans (welcome to hell): - 1 fully charged Greater Rez Rod (or several normal rods). Rods are a lot faster than scrolls. This is why we have Electrifiers and penniless demigods - 1-2 each Biorejuvenators and Stones of Succor (or Apport Arcane), - scrolls (if you can use them - Stone to Flesh, Greater Sanctuary, BBoD, etc.), - wands (if you can use them - clarity, remove fear, gust of wind, etc.) - Ethereal Potions (Zomg! Party getting owned, cleric down, no Miracle available until I rez him!) - Moderately Escapable Forcecages (bind those free-roaming nasties in a huge scrum) - Life Transference Rods (buddy stuck, isolated from party, blocked by an impenetrable mass of hell-spawn?)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 21:42:02 GMT
To a certain extent, Overdriver, people are expected to know these things. I know that sounds harsh but it is the truth. Allowances are normally made in Avernus and Dis, and just about anywhere if you say this is your first run in <Layer X> but I see too many undeserving people in Minauros and beyond ... I find I need to be a jerk at times and turn away people whom I know are not ready for the run I am calling. I am one who constantly asks questions. Not to pester but to know and learn and pass it on. IMO it is simply a good idea to have a party atmosphere where the players are regularly chatting about the best way to tackle the current run, what is needed etc. Considering the importance of information and coordination on HG, an in-party atmosphere conducive to maximum information dissemination seems best. Priceless info. Thank you and please share anything else, down to the detail, you feel to be of value in these runs.
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Post by setep on Jan 5, 2009 19:15:34 GMT
i admit im the dumbest person i know( maybe an int-8). those that have been on runs with me will agree, and some probably avoid me like the plague. I have a horrible memory, and here and there some things just dont occur to me or i get caught up in a "drows bloodlust" and lose focus. Humor: this post is leaving quite a few ppl PO'ed as it takes away opportunities for them to dump all over someone. Some ppl(i could name) are just too ready to be hateful and you can almost feel them waiting for the moment. Serious: if the above isnt true, then you are making one of the mistakes posted here by the vets; your assuming everyone is on with your game plan----they are not!----if you have a good play, dont rathole it, let it out. dont berate someone after the damage is done because you are just as resposible because you knew and said nothing. i think haveing the lead carries more responsibility than some ppl want and if u cant do it pass it(i do every chance i get). it would help if the person with the hat would grab some E-courage and lay out a game plan(no the hat isnt just for porting to), i rarely see any of that and when things fall apart someone gets upset.....welcome to cause and effect. also you have to know the question before you can ask it. thank you for the post and replies, none of it is opinion but facts i will try to keep in mind as i play. btw i was lead here in a round about way as the person just couldnt tell me directly
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2009 10:40:04 GMT
Coming back and refreshing my memory here. Reading it again puts me in the mind of my con monster toon. I am tempted to actually finish leveling the toon sooner rather than later and posting the build as 'Blocker'.
This also puts me in the mind of extremes. I have been playing with them lately and spending almost as much time in the test chamber as in the game. The 'blocker' extreme is one example. The other one I brought to lvl 60 is the pure offense machine.
It hit me that if there were one of each in a party, with more balanced 'tanks' to boot, that party would be a slaughtering machine. But personally, I rarely ever see the extremes only the more balanced toons.
One to be the spearhead as center-line blocker, the other to hang between the front line and the caster to hit enemy flanks and quickly kill anything that gets past the front lines.
Going to see to what extreme I can take these two types without entirely sacrificing their opposite capabilities (a blocker that can't damage is almost useless, a damager that can't take damage is almost useless).
Sorry for the rambling, but maybe others have thoughts on this.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Feb 2, 2009 0:00:20 GMT
I figured some people might use this FAQ as an excuse to browbeat anyone they choose to blame for party mistakes. Sorry to hear you were a victim of such.
Let me reiterate: this is a GUIDE. It is not law, but an outline of strategic principles which may or may not come into play as the situation dictates, and is open to revision. It is not my wish that people should be pointed to this guide, directly or indirectly, as a way to insult them. Show patience, explain that you are only wanting to help everyone - including newbie tanks - to enjoy the game more, and maybe even tell them your mention of this FAQ is an expression of the confidence you have in them as a player. Even veterans don't always employ all the tactics in here to the best effect, we all have things to learn. For example, if I'm lazy and the party's not in imminent danger, I might hit a stoned mob for a while. Someone's gotta kill it eventually. I don't always choose my ground advantageously, or wait for the casters to finish buffing. (DB had to correct me on that in Stygia recently... or was it Malad...)
CON tanks are far from a new idea, I'm sure you realize that. Back during the early Hardcore days I remember several people leveling tanks who specialized in high HP and couldn't hit a tree in an open field with a greataxe.
A great tactic for tanks that I may have neglected, at least in Hells where it matters, is to position yourself between the front line and the squishies. I commonly do this, and have had many casters thank me for it. I've seen lots of other people do it too... just because you're not hitting something doesn't mean you're useless! Stop any enemy from getting from the front to the back, and you've potentially saved a teammate's life.
And on that note, I must disagree with this:
With all due respect, I've seen all sorts of both extremes that helped parties greatly. Squishy monk/COTs with dual nunchakus who can't take much punishment, but who can chew through PFs and other crit-immune nasties in seconds. Swarthy dwarves and tanker pariahs who almost NEVER fall in battle, and whose presence nearly guarantees protection and a quick rez when necessary.
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Post by chrystoph on Jun 12, 2009 20:04:52 GMT
when tanking enemies with cone attacks (eg dragons), position yourself so that when they use the attack it wont wipe half the squishies either Huge advice for people with Improved Evasion!!!
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Jun 12, 2009 20:47:28 GMT
Bah then what wil I do with my Rez Packs pfffttttt
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2010 10:07:33 GMT
Could be a whole sub-forum on how to play each of the different classes and types. I have learned allot since my first posts in this thread. Wanted to ad, just now, tanks use the TAB button, especially in hells/end game areas. You should already know what your primary role and priority targets are, tab in the midst of heavy combat and casting really helps to point out what the baddies are and where they are at. Hovering the cursor around takes 10x longer.
I also wanted to ad that properly buffed tanks in a party where the casters are doing their jobs as well are nearly invincible provided the player is fairly competent. All casting classes buff the crap out of the tanks in your party. Expect each tank to need more than 1 gmw/iof, unless you do not want them to effectively tank things that heal on certain damage type. Druids should be right in the midst of the tanks casting mass heal as nescessary (more than what people think) and buffing tanks at the start with monstrous regen. Having healing circle up and with a nice heal skill also really helps. Drown everything that can be drowned, stone where possible. Bard always have song/curse up, no matter what. The only thing more frustrating than not being able to find a bard for a end game run is finding a bard that forgets song/curse. WMD casters, kill Narz and dom baddies asap. A tank can only hold out so long against these. Ploders, plode machines. Please. No really, please.
All of this together adds up to a nearly invincible front line of tankage that can take whatever the nasties have to dish out long enough for the wmd casters to take em out.
Speaking of tactics, and this not only for the individual tank, but more for the assembled tanks of any party- whether by nature or by plan there has to be some game-plan. There are core-wedge tanks that deal a little less damage but can withstand nearly anything and there are dmg dealers that are a little more squishy but put out a ton of damage. The core tanks need to block/screen the majority of the mobs up front, and the damage dealers need to take care of back spawn and the occasional amni and advespa that squirts through the front line.
Ok, there is some of what I have to add about tanking in 2010 HG. More to follow.
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