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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 9:30:40 GMT
Long before NWN or even BG, I played D&D. Many years of straightforward pnp AD&D. I was- and am- a power gamer. But also a role-player.
I make a point about once a night, in a forming party, to ask if the group wants to take it to server 8 and roleplay the run. Mixed reaction always. The main reason why not is usually, "HG is for powergaming, not roleplayng".
I never got why the two are perceived to be incompatible. My RP characters were always hack and slash. Even after NWN came out and I hit the RP servers, I rarely spent hours in an inn or standing around just 'roleplaying'.
Long wordy dialogue and nuanced *expressions* are certainly a part of role playing. But IMO the bigger part is simply going on an adventure and taking the whole thing in from the perspective of the character. The action, the mystery, the adventure is central; an orienting point around which role play revolves and evolves. To me anyways.
I could go on and on and on about this.
Anyone who has read this far, I'd like to read your opinions on this topic. An answer to the question- are powergaming and roleplaying compatible?
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Post by Avissar on Dec 30, 2008 9:59:04 GMT
Well, I certainly cannot speak for everyone, but I believe (and know) that powergaming and RP are 100% compatable.
First, nwn is based off PnP Dungeons and Dragons. In the players handbook it plainly states that the rules there are merely guidelines. I've played D&D for about 16-17 years now, and I am a powergamer too. I make all my modules from scratch. I have 5 people in my current group and they are all ghesalted. (Ghesalted means they take two classes at once and get the best of both worlds ie a 6th Fighter/Wiz would have a +6/+1 BAB, full six wizard caster levels, a good fort and will save, and 6D10 worth of hp ect ect) My uncle (he got me started playing D&D, he started with the original box set) gave me crap about it for years until he finally made a character and joined one of my modules. He learned quickly that when a character is powerful and has lots of extra power, the monsters are a LOT tougher than normal. Higher ground understands power/balance ratios.
Higher ground is such a place. Yes, our characters are extremely powerful, but anyone who thinks where are things here on this module that can't challenge them they are nuts. I don't see anyone soloing Nessus!!!
And there is many, many forms of roleplay styles. Some people like to sit in town and just type; others like to go into the dungeon and RP it out. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either style. My characters are usually a mix of the two.
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Post by MurphysLawAgain on Dec 30, 2008 13:12:35 GMT
Roleplay can cover a variety of styles and work in lots of ways. Where there are problems they tend to arise from the absurdity required to make powergaming norms work in a roleplaying environment. An example of this was the old "standard" Pale Master build which was 10 Wis, 49 PM, 1 Paladin. All PM's were LG. The exceptional one can just about be justified. Having lots of them running around was a little bit silly. It works for powergamers because alignment is just an issue to be finessed for them, but for roleplayers who demand rationale and story its harder to explain. Paladin and Blackguard splash is always going to cause problems. Tons of builds use it, but in a "true" roleplay environment they would be at each others throats in seconds. In some RP severs its banned, simply because it tends to be cheesy. Should many clerics have a level of paladin - well maybe, its semi sensible. But sorcerors & bards? Thats something different. In a wider context HG has always been about optimised builds. Roleplay often calls for some sacrifices in power for added realism - which simply wont work here. This doesn't mean that players cannot do some roleplay but that roleplay is going to take second place to powergaming. How many builds use Int as a dump stat? Roleplaying 6 or 8 Int means being VERY slow indeed. But are you going to cut your core stats to boost int? The same goes for Cha or Wis. HG is setup to require the most powerful builds possible. Sorcerors who at lvl 60 have 48 Cha and 10 Blackguard levels wont do well - even with 30 pages of backstory and great roleplaying potential. A trip to Hell wont do them or their party any favours at all. Dont get me started on the roleplay implications of the bankchest system or wallets either. It would be possible to read the above and think that I am against roleplay. This would be a shame, since I support its addition - as an optional extra. The day I have to do roleplay I will head for a different server because I dont want to do it all the time. Nor do I want to play in a server optimised for roleplay (weaker monsters, forbidden builds because they are "too powerfull", caps on the number of levels gained per day or week to require time standing around developing a backstory). If people want to add a little roleplay to HG then a server where they can do it is a nice idea - and worth a try. Just dont expect too much from it
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 6:05:17 GMT
Well, I certainly cannot speak for everyone, but I believe (and know) that powergaming and RP are 100% compatable. First, nwn is based off PnP Dungeons and Dragons. In the players handbook it plainly states that the rules there are merely guidelines. I've played D&D for about 16-17 years now, and I am a powergamer too. I make all my modules from scratch. I have 5 people in my current group and they are all ghesalted. (Ghesalted means they take two classes at once and get the best of both worlds ie a 6th Fighter/Wiz would have a +6/+1 BAB, full six wizard caster levels, a good fort and will save, and 6D10 worth of hp ect ect) My uncle (he got me started playing D&D, he started with the original box set) gave me crap about it for years until he finally made a character and joined one of my modules. He learned quickly that when a character is powerful and has lots of extra power, the monsters are a LOT tougher than normal. Higher ground understands power/balance ratios. Higher ground is such a place. Yes, our characters are extremely powerful, but anyone who thinks where are things here on this module that can't challenge them they are nuts. I don't see anyone soloing Nessus!!! And there is many, many forms of roleplay styles. Some people like to sit in town and just type; others like to go into the dungeon and RP it out. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either style. My characters are usually a mix of the two. Wow, I stopped playing pnp D&D about 10 years ago. It was getting too hard to find people who would commit to the same schedule through an entire campaign. I actually enjoyed it a bit more than 'digital' d&d. Campaigns and entire worlds from scratch. Never had the patience to learn all of the scripting etc needed to flesh out my pnp campaigns in nwn form. I figure when I win the 250 mil power ball, I'll invest 25mil and have a crew of programmers flesh it all out as an original video-game fantasy rpg for me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 6:50:52 GMT
Roleplay can cover a variety of styles and work in lots of ways. Where there are problems they tend to arise from the absurdity required to make powergaming norms work in a roleplaying environment. An example of this was the old "standard" Pale Master build which was 10 Wis, 49 PM, 1 Paladin. All PM's were LG. The exceptional one can just about be justified. Having lots of them running around was a little bit silly. It works for powergamers because alignment is just an issue to be finessed for them, but for roleplayers who demand rationale and story its harder to explain. Paladin and Blackguard splash is always going to cause problems. Tons of builds use it, but in a "true" roleplay environment they would be at each others throats in seconds. In some RP severs its banned, simply because it tends to be cheesy. Should many clerics have a level of paladin - well maybe, its semi sensible. But sorcerors & bards? Thats something different. I am a bit confused, are you saying that too many characters with either the paladin or the blackguard splash would cause a situation where they would be at each others throats in seconds? If so, I disagree. In RP a splash reflects a "reality"- that a characters discipline could not match his passion for a specific path so the path had to change. I would imagine that more than a few levels of either paladin or blackguard would require incredible moral discipline, and that only the most fanatically committed characters would have the inner strength to take either the paladin or blackguard path further than that. Those who lack that internal strength but wish to maintain the same (though less strenuous) moral code choose another path. That other path being the other classes in their build. Lets not forget that the best asset a cause can have is a powerful champion. In this way, power gaming is justified. I agree there are different kinds of role playing, and fantasy role playing almost defines the 'power-playing' rp genre its self. D&D in general is built around the idea of optimized builds. Otherwise the system would express some kind of game mechanic to address role playing. It does not. Because it is a heroic (or diabolical) fantasy role playing game. The idea isn't to role play weak down trodden tragic figures barely hanging onto survival in the world, unless you are the DM. IE unless you are a DM role playing a victimized or otherwise helpless NPC. This is why dump stats are not a big deal. A powerful wizard must have a high INT and should be role played accordingly. A mighty fighter, fantastically gifted sorcerer etc. can have a 6 INT and still be role played successfully. Because it is not nescessary to their optimized builds that they be smart or act smart. Why not? Not everyone has the goal of finishing the absolutely most difficult parts of the game, some may simply enjoy playing their character and going as far as they can go. I have 2 toons that are not deep-hells worthy on Action HG and I enjoy playing them just to play the characters even in a non-rp environment. Get some 55-60 level full runs together on 8 and I would have a blast with these guys. Allot of enjoyable role playing to be had even in epic power gaming failure. And this goes to the heart of why power gaming and role playing are excellent mates: The role playing is BETTER the harder the mod. And no mod is more challenging than HG! Hey that last bit is reasonable advice. I do think though that the roleplay + powergaming = no, argument is a bit cliche though. I really think the perspective you've outlined comes from years of the standard nwn role play server experience. I also think that what HG is trying to do in the role play arena is something original and bold, something to break both the rp and power gaming mold. A bit of a return to the blast that was pnp powerplaying. All IMO of course. Thank you fr the thoughtful discussion and I hope I have not worded my argument too strongly or bluntly. Cheers.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Dec 31, 2008 10:27:06 GMT
Roleplay can cover a variety of styles and work in lots of ways. Where there are problems they tend to arise from the absurdity required to make powergaming norms work in a roleplaying environment. An example of this was the old "standard" Pale Master build which was 10 Wis, 49 PM, 1 Paladin. All PM's were LG. The exceptional one can just about be justified. Having lots of them running around was a little bit silly. It works for powergamers because alignment is just an issue to be finessed for them, but for roleplayers who demand rationale and story its harder to explain. Paladin and Blackguard splash is always going to cause problems. Tons of builds use it, but in a "true" roleplay environment they would be at each others throats in seconds. In some RP severs its banned, simply because it tends to be cheesy. Should many clerics have a level of paladin - well maybe, its semi sensible. But sorcerors & bards? Thats something different. I am a bit confused, are you saying that too many characters with either the paladin or the blackguard splash would cause a situation where they would be at each others throats in seconds? If so, I disagree. In RP a splash reflects a "reality"- that a characters discipline could not match his passion for a specific path so the path had to change. I would imagine that more than a few levels of either paladin or blackguard would require incredible moral discipline, and that only the most fanatically committed characters would have the inner strength to take either the paladin or blackguard path further than that. Those who lack that internal strength but wish to maintain the same (though less strenuous) moral code choose another path. That other path being the other classes in their build. The issue between power gaming and traditional role playing is that building a good power gaming character requires making decisions based on an understanding of the game's mechanics that characters shouldn't have. You could come up with alternate justifications so as to make those same choices, yes, but that's disingenuous play. That one PM would choose to take a paladin level is reasonable - that every PM is role playing theirs to take a single paladin level is ridiculous from an RP perspective. And once you start twisting the rules, RP becomes a farce, though from what I've seen it's the balance issues power gamers create that are the main reason for it being banned on many RP servers. D&D in general is built around the idea of optimized builds. Otherwise the system would express some kind of game mechanic to address role playing. It does not. In my opinion, DnD in general is built around the idea of how best to simulate an adventure, battle, or what-have-you. The rules are guidelines, I don't think they're particularly biased either way, especially considering how customizable everything is in an actual real world session of DnD. That you see it as built around the idea of optimized builds is probably more a reflection of what you want out of DnD than what it actually is.
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Post by Avissar on Dec 31, 2008 11:10:17 GMT
Neverwinter nights is a lot more powerful than typical D&D anyways. Not only have several classes gotten modified for nwn, how many actual D&D campaigns have you participated in where you've gotten past level 20-30.
I typically start my PnP campaigns around 4th level. I do this because it prevents characters from easily being wiped out at low levels. LIke I said before, I've played D&D for a long time now, and the longest I EVER have a campaign run was from 4-42nd. The characters were uber super powerful at that point (natrually), but we still did a TON of RP.
And for the record, I believe one reason some are reluctant to go to server 8 is because party chat is disabled; it makes it extremely difficult to coordinate. With time though, I am confidant that any player who devoted time to plating on server 8 could easily adapt to the lack of a party chat channel. I know I have.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2009 6:06:00 GMT
The issue between power gaming and traditional role playing is that building a good power gaming character requires making decisions based on an understanding of the game's mechanics that characters shouldn't have. You could come up with alternate justifications so as to make those same choices, yes, but that's disingenuous play. How is it possible to play a game or build a character for that game if you are making decisions without an understanding of the games mechanics? How would you define 'traditional role-playing'? In the context of D&D, traditional role playing means role playing as it was/is done in the original pnp version. The pnp version being a medieval fantasy tactical simulation in which you play a character built from and played within the rules of that simulation. People enjoy playing all kinds of game-based roles. Some people just role-play spontaneously with no rules. I have done both. Hang out with an amateur live theater group for awhile and you'll see people spontaneously break out into a role in the middle of an after-show visit to the diner and everyone else will join in with their own improvised roles. Role-playing with no rules (ie no or little consideration of any kind of game mechanics) can be fun but traditional D&D role-playing it absolutely is not. Given the above, I don't why role-playing within the established RP context (the game mechanics) is at all disingenuous. Perhaps disingenuous in a no-rules spontaneous role-play outburst, but not at all in the context of Gygaxian RPG. Only if one has an anal definition of role-play. Like the thread-count nazis who police Society for Creative Anachronism events. Otherwise, it is totally realistic that a person has several branches on their career path. Many jobs actually require multiple positions and these jobs are much like quasi classes. Example: A young man graduates college and follows his passion for law-enforcement into the State Police. Being a State Police Trooper he has had to undergo specialized training and achieve certain specialized clearances (feats and 'special abilities'). After a few years as a Trooper (level 3 State Trooper ie) he decides that while he still loves law enforcement, the demands of being a State Trooper are too much for him so he chooses another law-enforcement path. While doing so, he takes a couple levels of City Police until his opportunity arises. There is an opening for a Federal Marshall job and he goes for it, knowing that he has the required training, clearances and experience (levels) in City and State Law Enforcement. That happens ALL the time. Being so common in real-life I don't see how it could be so ridiculous in an RP world with established game mechanics. I don't see any rules twisted in my examples. D&D in general is built around the idea of optimized builds. Otherwise the system would express some kind of game mechanic to address role playing. It does not. In my opinion, DnD in general is built around the idea of how best to simulate an adventure, battle, or what-have-you. The rules are guidelines, I don't think they're particularly biased either way, especially considering how customizable everything is in an actual real world session of DnD. That you see it as built around the idea of optimized builds is probably more a reflection of what you want out of DnD than what it actually is.[/quote] I think it is fair to say that DnD is actually a reflection of what the players want out of it. That is how it was built. Thank you for the well-thought out response
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Post by MurphysLawAgain on Jan 1, 2009 10:00:54 GMT
Overdriver, in your example you may not be thinking about what a PM (or Pale Master) is. In your career example its more like this. Spend 9 levels becoming a wizard. Spend 10 learning to raise the undead and evil magic. Spend 1 level as un upholder of truth, good, and law. Then spending the rest of your career raising undead and using black magic for good. Now for one character to follow this career path - maybe. For all or almost all player liches (because thats what they become) to be lawful good upholders of truth who just happen to have spent a lifetime learning evil magic is a bit silly. You can tie yourself in knots explaining it but it makes a mockery of what the class is.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 6:37:02 GMT
Overdriver, in your example you may not be thinking about what a PM (or Pale Master) is. In your career example its more like this. Spend 9 levels becoming a wizard. Spend 10 learning to raise the undead and evil magic. Spend 1 level as un upholder of truth, good, and law. Then spending the rest of your career raising undead and using black magic for good. Now for one character to follow this career path - maybe. For all or almost all player liches (because thats what they become) to be lawful good upholders of truth who just happen to have spent a lifetime learning evil magic is a bit silly. You can tie yourself in knots explaining it but it makes a mockery of what the class is. Why would all role-players who choose to build a liche character, choose to build a PM? If the point is that sometimes role-playing requires that one not take the absolute most powerful path and sometimes power gaming sometimes not take the most "rp" path, I would agree. But to me this still doesn't explain why role-playing and power gaming are mutually exclusive. In certain specific cases, yes they might be. But overall, no. Suffice to say maybe, that I really think the whole thing has evolved so that NWN role-players in general are way to extreme with the role-playing and that power gamers are way to extreme with the power gaming. To me, the most enjoyable experience is somewhere in between. I just wish more people saw it the same way. IMO the game minus all role-playing is really just a series of math problems accompanied by special effects. The game minus power gaming is no more or less than impromptu role-playing. The awesome thing about 'the game' is that it is supposed to be both. A highly balanced system of game mechanics through which one can develop and play a character.
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Post by diemex on Jan 4, 2009 22:45:07 GMT
There are a few issues with the NWN mechanics that make RP a bit of an issue for me to take too seriously. I can handle RP-lite... but to really get serious is absurd, How many hero stories, DnD campaigns, books, etc have you seen or read that have in tyhem some character (a fighter) that is carrying around 5 swords, 3 sets of full platemail, 4 helms, 20 rings, over 100 potions of healing..... etc A strength based character can 'carry' 2000+ weight easily once that strength gets up there but the rule is interpretted leterally by the game engine so you can carry 20 sets of full platemail if you wanted to. No magic required. Where the heck are you putting those 20 sets Size/bulk are not considered and it kind of spoils the enviroment when you think about it. Bag of holding solves all that ! But I remember those in the PnP world as being ultra-rare finds. Not so on HG. I remember too that mages in the party back in the PnP days were sought after not just for Sleep and Fireball.... but hell we wanted that good ol Tensers floating disc so we could carry all that loot we found. Cause in PnP DnD the DM wouldnt let us carry a second set of plate unless you had somewhere to put it. "In my pocket" didnt work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 1:25:47 GMT
There are a few issues with the NWN mechanics that make RP a bit of an issue for me to take too seriously. I can handle RP-lite... but to really get serious is absurd, How many hero stories, DnD campaigns, books, etc have you seen or read that have in tyhem some character (a fighter) that is carrying around 5 swords, 3 sets of full platemail, 4 helms, 20 rings, over 100 potions of healing..... etc A strength based character can 'carry' 2000+ weight easily once that strength gets up there but the rule is interpretted leterally by the game engine so you can carry 20 sets of full platemail if you wanted to. No magic required. Where the heck are you putting those 20 sets Size/bulk are not considered and it kind of spoils the enviroment when you think about it. Bag of holding solves all that ! But I remember those in the PnP world as being ultra-rare finds. Not so on HG. I remember too that mages in the party back in the PnP days were sought after not just for Sleep and Fireball.... but hell we wanted that good ol Tensers floating disc so we could carry all that loot we found. Cause in PnP DnD the DM wouldnt let us carry a second set of plate unless you had somewhere to put it. "In my pocket" didnt work. I totally agree with this and felt since the very beginning that NWN had some extreme flaws. Also that the next nescessary stage of evolution of the 'gygaxian' rpg is online multiplayer pc rpg'ing, and that NWN simply is not that step. None the less it is the closest thing we have to it, and IMO HG is hands down the finest NWN mod. So yes, RP lite, anything else is a mockery. My assumption was that this was understood from the outset. So happens I prefer RP lite so long as the players actually role-play, there is some back-story to the characters and the longest rp sessions are usually at the start or end of the run.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 17, 2009 17:30:24 GMT
The way I look at it is that yes, there are a few points at which RP runs head-on into game mechanics on HG - like the PM with a level of pally. We've been slowly winnowing out those points over time, however, for the sake of suspension of disbelief.
Funky
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Post by diemex on Jan 19, 2009 5:29:17 GMT
I've not done much roleplay online. Only back in the PnP days.
But I'm tempted to try it out on 118. And if I'm gonna roleplay... may as well make it a hardcore character too.
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Post by Vastian Krow on Jan 23, 2009 12:56:20 GMT
My suggestion for making server 8 a great RP server without changing build rules: 1. Make player housing available on server 118 only. 2. Allow only -HC- characters in server 118. 1. The sense of Home. When you can buy a home, fill it with furniture of your choosing and welcome others into your home, RP is great. most of the successful RP servers that I have RP'd on had Player housing and a Crafting system making characters unique and well rewarded. But if the owner of the house dies then perhaps it can remain in the (1 house or building per) CD key account or lost with the (1 house per character) deceased. I would remove all post immo maps from this server (8) to keep lag on it to a minimum but have some possible dangers on the server. Of course this causes lag but if we leave it on server 8 only we can find a way to make it not affect 1-7. That way we can do our training and leveling on 1-7 but RP only on 8 on our run downtime. 2. Nothing is more dramatic than life and death. The life of HC is difficult and once dead he is gone but leave us with his memory. All can be HC, few survive but those that do form a bond rarely seen in non hc. They care more about one another's safety and are more serious, less reckless. (At least those that survive are.) Their lives are longer in game thus you get to know them in game. I do not like restrictions on levels either, I miss my 1 level of Shadowdancer builds already. Personally, I don't waste my time RPing with non HC because they only exist in game for less than a month, lol. These are only my opinions, I'm not here to change anything, I just love the challenge HG provides, When I want to RP with friends, I go to this awesome crafting server where we work and trade together before going on dangerous runs. This is just a rough draft of an idea, we can all work together to perfect a RP server where we can have intense fun and enjoy quiet time with friends. As far as PM /Pally builds are concerned, The players are the judges. Meaning that if I want to play a Lawful Good Lich then I must be prepared to defend myself against (or flee from) the suspicious populace led by a Pally/CoT/WM. Laws may be changed in town to kill all liches on sight and so on. Or perhaps players won't travel with an evil wizard, thus he would not get far, much less get to Immo.
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