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Post by miraborg on Jan 4, 2009 13:02:45 GMT
seems like we have not enough bards i noticed that there are a lot of runs not getting off the ground cause there are no bards around leaving a 9 man band stranded and frustrated after hours of waiting & shouting for a bard. I was thinking if it would be possible to tweak some other classes to partly take over barding so you could do without a bard but would be better off with one. Sure you would still miss the bard epics but there has to be a away to live without those darn Musicians that never are there when needed As it is now you can work around most of the classes but not the Bard and thats imho very wrong. My 2 cents PS.: If you think this is ranting please move it I see it as constructive critisism and there for posted it here
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Post by supertrooper33 on Jan 4, 2009 13:56:19 GMT
Have to agree very strongly. Bards are the one essential class for all runs - everything else there is a substitute, or a strong party can do without. Couple of ideas Finish the rework of Warchanters. There have been a lot of ideas submitted, so lets finish those up - I know I would love to get mine active again. Make an item that can "cast" the bard song/curse song, with limited uses, like the draughts that drop in hell. Make another quasi which can sing, so they can pair up with a shifter harpy (for curse) and the 2 classes can function as a bard. It is really frustrating to sit around all day, unable to go on runs due to the lack of bards, something which then drives players to quit playing.
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Post by MurphysLawAgain on Jan 4, 2009 15:43:28 GMT
Or of course, more players could make bards? I have found it quite a lot of fun .... you don't get to be macho in your kill count but you are much appreciated
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Post by supertrooper33 on Jan 4, 2009 16:28:17 GMT
But I think that is the root of the problem - I have a demi bard, but it is boring to me to play (I know, there will be an outcry of how great and difficult they are, but they just aren't my thing...) and I think the bard players get forced to play theirs all the time, which ruins the fun of having multiple characters. Alternatives would be great.
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Post by chainlink on Jan 4, 2009 17:33:58 GMT
Nothing to do with kill count but I can't say I've found any of the bards I've built fun to play, I think the only type I'd get any joy out of would be a dexer as you're doing something other than singing, curseing or using epics.
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Post by jonuhey on Jan 4, 2009 18:00:44 GMT
You actually need to do more than singing, curseing or using epics even if your ab is 50.
I really enjoyed to play my bard up to hells, I had a lot of fun running in the desert,db, in uro, even in PoM (when she was lv60 already). But in hells theres a big difference, and barding seems like a burden to me. I like to bard, but its just too hard to do it in hells (to be a good one) that I often "forget" to play mine for a week or more.
I guess most bards around play them only for tags in hells. What doesnt happens with their tanks/casters, cuz they like to play them and have fun doing runs for loot/helping only.
Shout for a bard for tia, you'll get it in no time, but shout for phleg and if one comes, ask him if he has the tag. Almost sure he will not have that tag yet.
What I mean is that there are lots of bards out there, but most of them arent being played due to something in their role in hells, even if they'll be loved by players that you "saved the run" by applying after one hour they were shouting for a bard only.
Jonuhey
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jan 4, 2009 19:42:56 GMT
Bard is the only class you absolutely need in the hells. Every other class you can do without and still do the run. And as Arch once said, it's a freaking support class.
I think it's a balance issue - bard song is way overpowered. IMO, it's not that other classes should get the bonuses of bards, it's that bard song should be nerfed so it's less vital.
ADDED: I would suggest cutting the save drops in half; the ab bonus in half or provide other classes the means to raise ab that stacks with gmw (a mass tensors and mass divine power or something). Bards would still be powerful but they wouldn't be a necessity for ordinary hell runs.
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Post by the1kobra on Jan 5, 2009 3:32:48 GMT
I think it's a balance issue - bard song is way overpowered. IMO, it's not that other classes should get the bonuses of bards, it's that bard song should be nerfed so it's less vital. I think the bigger issue is cursesong, as there are substitutes for the bard song. IOF, prayer, and bless hit the cap as far as AB goes, it just means the cleric has to make sure everyone has it at all times. UEF, mage armor, Aura of Vitality, and I'm sure there are a few others I'm not thinking of, but still, the song can be substituted for. On the other hand, nothing in the game has the immediate, decisive, and powerful effect of a cursesong. -15 AC is enough to make some tanks go from only hitting with some of their attacks to only missing on a 1. The saves drop means casters can land their spells much more reliably, and there is no save involved, and has a massive area of effect, and only takes one round to do. Granted, it's not that simple, nerfing curse song would likely require restructuring most of the monsters in the 50-60 range, which would be a huge headache to our admins...
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Post by Avissar on Jan 5, 2009 3:58:58 GMT
Well, while I do think it is annoying for a party to wait on a bard, I have also been on several runs where whatever we were doing was cancelled because we didn't have a cleric or a druid. I've also seen runs where they were cancelled due to not enough tanks, or no grabby mage.
One of the things I love most about this server is it's difficulty level. I also love the fact that parties on this server actually needs to worry whether or not they have "all their bases covered."
Nerfing bards probably isn't the best answer. I like some of the alternate ideas such as new classes that can make use of bard curse and bard song. Consumable items may be good as well; however, I can see these items becoming the hottest new thing. In short, the items will get gobbled quick as can be and then the party is left calling for a bard.
Since bard song/curse doesn't rely on a check, why not give it a DC or allow spell resistance. Something like bard level vrs CR of the monster works too.
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Post by drunkenboaster on Jan 5, 2009 7:24:45 GMT
As the owner of a x5 demi bard that has been on every run in the game, along with all the owners of x5 demi bards that have seen it all too, we would wish all you others to maybe GO MAKE A BARD ALREADY. Players who say bards are boring are clueless on to how to play a caster bard. After you have ensured everything is cursed, used epics as needed, bestowed curse/mord big baddies to lower sr, taunted something every round, raised and resung for the fallen, stf/lesser MB/clarity/removed cursed the disabled, maintained healing circle and spammed a few mass heals, hit as much as could with wail of doom to lower saves, picked a few pockets, spammed some ice storms and sound burst for a little damage, you are ready to move onto the next mob and do it all over again. All the while trying to stay alive with sub 100 ac when everyone around you has 130+, can't gs and hide with active epics. I think players have become way to dependant upon bards. I have seen plenty of shouts requesting bards for runs like thids and dustbone. Those runs have hardly changed at all in difficulty in the two years I have played here, yet toons have become significantly more powerful and UR+ gear has become much more common which has caused those runs to become a lot easier. I think this almost caused a dumbing down of skill development for players learning to play their toons. To get back on topic for bard alternatives, I agree there are very few options that bring with such speed and efectiveness for crippling opponents and boosting a party's ability to excell that bard delivers. A pure shifter's level 35 equivelent harpy song could be a solid alternative, but tough to get that 35 song with hell penalties. Attack bonus is easily maximised with IoF, bless and prayer from a well built cleric. There are a number of spells that offer a bonus to skills to make up for lack of song. Lots of other lower abilities as well, barbarian/rdd fear aura, pm lichsong, etc... To all those player those players who have barded runs when they did not need the tag, banked without with treasure scent without having to be asked, and gone that extra mile that many players are to chicken walk, cheers to you
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Post by Egg on Jan 5, 2009 8:24:45 GMT
Players who say bards are boring are clueless on to how to play a caster bard. After you have ensured everything is cursed, used epics as needed, bestowed curse/mord big baddies to lower sr, taunted something every round, raised and resung for the fallen, stf/lesser MB/clarity/removed cursed the disabled, maintained healing circle and spammed a few mass heals, hit as much as could with wail of doom to lower saves, picked a few pockets, spammed some ice storms and sound burst for a little damage, you are ready to move onto the next mob and do it all over again. All the while trying to stay alive with sub 100 ac when everyone around you has 130+, can't gs and hide with active epics. I think the point people were trying to make when they say they find bards boring is that, although the good bards do most of the said actions above, 9 times out of 10 it is so that others can do their job better. Which is exactly what a bard is about. However, I for one, find barding boring - not because I don't have anything to do - personally it's the most stressful class I have played and I feel like a waiter rushing between party members asking them if they would like to look at the desserts menu next. It is because I want to be damaging or killing monsters, plain and simple. I will reincarnate my bard as soon as I am able to, not because I enjoy playing it, but to help guildies out and get runs going.
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Post by mrbadexample on Jan 5, 2009 11:43:33 GMT
As one who has played bards in both LL and Hells, I think I have a bit of insight. I've also had the pleasure of being of being on voice chat with some friends that play bards.
To be honest there needs to be change in mindset regarding bards. Not by all but by some, we all know a bard can come in and punch a ticket when it comes to any run on the server, but they need a bit of respect.
I've been frustrated to the point of never barding for any run other then my guild. This is mostly due to over the past year or so hells has been in place bards have had more and more piled upon them to take care of.
At any given point a bard has to: --bardsong party --curse Targets --Party Buff Bot --Heal Party --use epics --loot/bank/Packmule
*Most of the above the bard has to try to do in a relatively short amount of time, while trying to keep themselves alive. At some point in the life of the bard ether in Hells or other runs they get soured by one or multiple members of the party. Yes, the thankless job of barding gets the joys of being yelled at privately or publicly by some idiot who spawned while the bard was doing his other appointed tasks and died. The bard can only be in one place at a time, plz wait for them to do what they need to do.
*Most of the time this is all an assumed task by other in the party. Most of that isn't an issue, but banking has become an increasingly irritating practice. Because Treasure Scent has been built up as a "required" spell most think the bard should have to bank on top of the other prior ties. This is while the rest of a party takes off and then complains cause the bard has not finished banking and cursed the mobs they spawned, or likely bard songed the one who died spawning instead of waiting for the loot pop.
*So I think all in all Things shouldn't change except people should give more respect to bards. It is a very thankless job that puts everyone else's wishes above your own, epically survival. Be kind to your bard and they will be kind to you. You wanna tell a bard how to do his job when he has run non stop to keep your sorry arse on your feet, MAKE YOUR OWN!
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Post by shardelay on Jan 5, 2009 12:18:37 GMT
As a suggestion to relieve the stress of barding (not a suggestion to the problem of bards being so necessary), could treasure scent be changed to a targetable buff with a long duration so that a bard with treasure scent needs only cast it once per rest on the looter?
That way some of the issue of waiting on the bard to loot could be relieved by having the job handed off to a more flexible character (extra tank etc...)
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Post by nomsat on Jan 5, 2009 13:43:08 GMT
Very good suggestion Shard.
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Post by Trazik on Jan 5, 2009 15:53:26 GMT
What about Treasure Scent becoming a feat that requires a minimum Lore score (say ... 50ish ) that can be taken by *any* class? My Str bard cannot use Treasure Scent (too many other things to do with spell slots of that level) nor can he cast Healing Circle (no room for heal skill). I would be very happy to see these abilities removed from bards, to be honest, in line with Semaj's post above. I would also be happy to see Deafening Clang become a level 1 bard spell (what other level 1 spells should bards be using? Seriously (other than ER themselves, or Sticky Fingers 1-2 party members)? And GMW could be removed entirely, in favour of mages, clerics and the occasional paladin. I think these changes could take away some of the repetitiveness of playing a bard.
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