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Post by Trazik on Jun 3, 2009 14:58:51 GMT
Initial comment: - looks complicated at a first glance. Need to spend more time reading long posts.
Initial questions (noting the above): - will this system eliminate the bank, Wrym chests and guildhall chests? - if the above is true, would the system be accessible from anywhere in the module? - will this system allow for the sale of "lots" (i.e. all rare and set bastard swords - 5, 29, 35, MoAD, DB, Ssithrak, Rona, Dis, Toyshop)? Would be super cool if possible, no major letdown if not.
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Post by arek on Jun 3, 2009 15:02:13 GMT
One q: What will happen to portable holes if this change is implemented? There'll be a special 'portable' tag you can use for up to 50 items which would be accessible anywhere as long as you have a portable hole in your inventory. Ok, thanks. The issue is specifically with loading items, which is why we have to get away from the 'browse in chests' system. Acaos So the problem lies with encoding/decoding the new properties....either you set a limit on the total number of 'random' properties an item can have, and possibly choke the DB with all the 'browse' requests, or you use nwnx to decode them on the fly when loading them into nwn, and choke the server when it suddenly has to decode a lot of items. Nice pickle you have there. The problem I see with not having stuff easily browsable, is user-un-friendliness. I think that when this gets implemented, we're gonna see a resurgence of 'bank' toons. As a compromise, would it be feasible to have some sort of dialog-based solution, where one can view a list of items on a particular 'tag' (or all items) and click on an item for details? One last q: with the new system, will 'renamed' items be able to keep the new name (this would be incredibly useful for rings and such), and if so, will there be an alternative way to reset the name on an item (besides banking it, which doesn't work for bags)? Or could there be a 'user description' implemented, which would then be tagged to the item, but only shown in the asset logs (or maybe tacked on at the top of the regular desc)? --Arek
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Post by Acaos on Jun 3, 2009 15:07:24 GMT
Storage examples: !st (target commodity with your command targeter) Stored @1004 Gem: Searing Spinel (+2d10 Fire) [x3] (total stored: 41)
!rt @1004 3 Retrieved @1004 Gem: Searing Spinel (+2d10 Fire) [x3] (remaining stored: 38) Bob: Found Searing Spinel.
!as gem Assets matching 'gem': [x 3] @1001 Gem: Flaming Eudialyte (+1d6 Fire) [x 2] @1002 Gem: Conflagrant Spinel (+2d6 Fire) [x 2] @1003 Gem: Flaming Garnet (+2d8 Fire) [x12] @1004 Gem: Searing Spinel (+2d10 Fire) [x17] @1005 Gem: Searing Ruby (+2d12 Fire) [x 1] @1006 Gem: Incalescent Eudialyte (+16 Fire) ... [x 2] @1050 Gem: Howling Topaz (+2d10 Sonic) (max of 50 items displayed; use '!as +50 gem' to continue)
!as +50 gem Assets matching '+50 gem': [x14] @1051 Gem: Stentorian Carnelian (+2d12 Sonic) [x 1] @1052 Gem: Blaring Amber (+16 Sonic)
!as gem 16 fire [x 1] @1006 Gem: Incalescent Eudialyte (+16 Fire)
!list tags Asset tags: %gem-2d12 (9 commodities, 0 valuables) %gem-16 (2 commodities, 0 valuables) %portable (1 commodity, 31 valuables)
!as %gem-16 [x 1] @1006 Gem: Incalescent Eudialyte (+16 Fire) [x 1] @1052 Gem: Blaring Amber (+16 Sonic)
!as quat !902353 Ring: Quaternary Union !954231 Ring: Quaternary Union
Acaos
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Post by Acaos on Jun 3, 2009 15:09:58 GMT
- will this system eliminate the bank, Wrym chests and guildhall chests? - if the above is true, would the system be accessible from anywhere in the module? - will this system allow for the sale of "lots" (i.e. all rare and set bastard swords - 5, 29, 35, MoAD, DB, Ssithrak, Rona, Dis, Toyshop)? Would be super cool if possible, no major letdown if not. - Eventually, assuming we get something we're happy with. - No, only from areas where you can access your wallet (with the exception of Portable Hole stored items). You'd be able to do marketing from anywhere, but marketing only transfers to and from storage, so even if you did buy an item, you wouldn't be able to access it if you were in Nessus. - Yes, you'll be able to sell or trade items in lots, and people will be able to make trade offer packages. Acaos
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Post by Acaos on Jun 3, 2009 15:12:49 GMT
The problem I see with not having stuff easily browsable, is user-un-friendliness. I think that when this gets implemented, we're gonna see a resurgence of 'bank' toons. As a compromise, would it be feasible to have some sort of dialog-based solution, where one can view a list of items on a particular 'tag' (or all items) and click on an item for details? This functionality is already planned with the !show command (see the example I posted a little bit ago, where Bob did !show on a gem). Stored valuables will retain their name, but marketed ones will not (to prevent fraud). Stored commodities would not (commodities are, after all, fungible). You can always (even right now) restore the original name on an item by using ' !setname -' (that's !setname followed by a single space and then a hyphen). Acaos
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Post by arek on Jun 3, 2009 15:31:25 GMT
The problem I see with not having stuff easily browsable, is user-un-friendliness. I think that when this gets implemented, we're gonna see a resurgence of 'bank' toons. As a compromise, would it be feasible to have some sort of dialog-based solution, where one can view a list of items on a particular 'tag' (or all items) and click on an item for details? This functionality is already planned with the !show command (see the example I posted a little bit ago, where Bob did !show on a gem). I understand the example perfectly, but the example shows bob using !commands to do all this. Not everybody is going to want to type everything every time they want to look at an item (imagine going through the market list, seeing 30 versions of an item you might like if the props are right, and having to do !show #1001, !show #1002...!show #1030 to look at them all. Not fun, Acaos, and very time-consuming for some people). A conversation (dialog) showing 10-15 items at a time, which you could click for descriptions, would be much nicer in this case. Stored valuables will retain their name, but marketed ones will not (to prevent fraud). Stored commodities would not (commodities are, after all, fungible). You can always (even right now) restore the original name on an item by using !setname - (that's !setname followed by a single space and then a hyphen). Acaos Having valuables keep custom names in asset storage is what I was after there (will help folks remember what rings they have available). I did not know about "!setname -". Is this documented somewhere? --Arek
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Post by Acaos on Jun 3, 2009 15:34:41 GMT
I think !setname is documented in the Chat Commands book, since it's a default SIMTools command.
Conversations are a major pain to do, and I was -really- hoping to avoid them, but I'll see what we can do.
To expand a little on browsing, I'm actually working on designing a search filter system that would let people search for individual properties. So you could say 'search for armor with base AC of 4 or 5 and a plus of at least +16, with fire immunity at least 5% and immunity to poison'.
Acaos
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Post by dirk on Jun 3, 2009 15:47:53 GMT
It sounds like storage and market features are moving to an entirely text based system, am I reading this correctly? Like someone commented previously, I lament the loss of the visual cue's, I identify a lot of my (precious little) gear by sight as opposed to names or types.
I use the Market Listing web page to do my shopping, so (hopefully) not much changes there I guess. I can't see enjoying the constant typing to browse through my stored items. How would I browse all the amulets I have in storage, for example (!list ammy-tag I suppose)? And looking at the list, to see detail on a couple of them, multiple !show info commands?
Hard to picture how it would work I guess. I do a lot of bank chest browsing, trying on this item and that item, mixing and matching to tweak out my stats. I have a hard time imagining how I'll do that without bankchests and visuals. *shrug* Mebee just me.
db
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Post by holes573 on Jun 3, 2009 17:31:37 GMT
This has been hinted at by others, but the thing that makes the chests useful to me is that I categorize things in a way that makes sense for me. That's not based on tag or whether it has a +10 atribute, but for me, its things like UR Boots or Best Rings. I imagine everyone would have a different system.
Is there any way to build in a capability that allows us set our own categories for items? That is, can we do "virtual" chests, where we develop a category and the "place" items into those categories?
-Holes
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Post by nataani on Jun 3, 2009 17:34:47 GMT
I have to agree with dirk on just about everything he has said there.
I will sorely miss that I cant see my items anymore. I cant flick through my bankchests, visually identify things and pluck out what I think I might want. Fair enough, it wont take a huge amount of getting used to, I am sure I can learn to identify things by text instead. What it doesnt change though is how much it detracts from the visual experience that is an online game.
I dont like the idea of the commands, though of course with this system there is no alternative. The endless typing that I will have to do is not something that I look forward to, not to mention when I make typos and have to rescroll up to find some number and type it out again. I type pretty quickly, so for me this wont be a huge issue... But what about our two finger "hunt and peck" typers out there? Not everyone on the server types at 70+ wpm, my dad for one barely manages 15. Think of how incredibly long and frustrating this system makes banking for those kinds of people, not to mention those who are dyslexic.
This system speaks to me of something that, as dirk put it, 'scripting nerds' will easily use. The rest of the community will struggle and just get frustrated all the time. Unless the system can be radically simplified from what was described, I cant give it even the tiniest bit of support.
The alternative, if a text based system is what must happen to support the randomized items/customized weapons, is basically the system we have now, but in text form.
The idea being that I could just go !bc abc and I would be given a list of all the items in that bankchest. !show (item number) gives me all its properties. Just like now, with the bankchest selected, anything I store will go into it and of course I can only retrieve from that bankchest at the moment. Its the same system, but insted of right click view, I use show, instead of dragging something in I use store and instead of dragging something out I use retrieve. No assets or commodities to confuse people, just the simplest bare bones it can be.
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Post by dodrudon on Jun 3, 2009 18:08:34 GMT
Is the current limitation because bankchests only store references to items? Is it too expensive to store references + info on random props? (assumptions, assumptions...)
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Post by khaine on Jun 3, 2009 18:16:26 GMT
How are the item numbers given created? Are they stored by item type, rarity, or drop zone? If so, that would be awesome.
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Post by Acaos on Jun 3, 2009 18:28:16 GMT
Is the current limitation because bankchests only store references to items? Is it too expensive to store references + info on random props? (assumptions, assumptions...) It's too expensive to encode/decode the info on random props when saving/loading a bank chest. Also, to answer Khaine's question, commodity IDs are constant per commodity; valuable and market IDs are unique and generated sequentially. Acaos
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Post by Acaos on Jun 3, 2009 18:29:29 GMT
Is there any way to build in a capability that allows us set our own categories for items? That is, can we do "virtual" chests, where we develop a category and the "place" items into those categories? That's exactly what tags are for. Acaos
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Post by Acaos on Jun 3, 2009 18:30:58 GMT
The idea being that I could just go !bc abc and I would be given a list of all the items in that bankchest. !show (item number) gives me all its properties. Just like now, with the bankchest selected, anything I store will go into it and of course I can only retrieve from that bankchest at the moment. Its the same system, but insted of right click view, I use show, instead of dragging something in I use store and instead of dragging something out I use retrieve. No assets or commodities to confuse people, just the simplest bare bones it can be. Nothing precludes having a simple front-end exactly like this for banking, and it's a good idea. In any case, we're looking at alternatives to allow people to keep using chests. One of the ideas we've looked at is to limit chests to containing 10 or so items; another is to limit all banking to one server and use a different database system. Neither is really acceptable. Of course, suggestions for alternatives are greatly welcome. The hard constraint is that no more than 10 or so items can be loaded in one 'chest opening' with customized/randomized item encoding/decoding at this time. Acaos
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