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Post by tyranlthixis on Jan 14, 2007 20:05:04 GMT
Some of my favorite items for this build are....
Belt of Bestial Resistance (Thid tag required) Bonus feats: Disarm, Weap Spec (unarmed strike) DR (20 Blud, 30 Divine, 10 Slash, 10 Pierce) +12 Con +12 Strength Saves Universal +8 Disc +12
Item covers your two main stats and allows you to put pretty much anything else on the other slots. Also, the Divine resist is really nice for Ssissthrax, Pyramid, and Hells. DR isn't as great as ygrettes but allows you to wear another ammy when necessary without a big penalty to your overall DR. Disarm is really nice in PvP. My giant can pickpocket anybody in combat wearing full plate and disarm weapons to the ground, making him a terror in a PvP situation.
Pentavite shield (tower, thids again) Shield AC +16 100% electric immune Universal saves +6
Brings your overall AC up to 118 with feats/UR gear, and 122 with Cleric Epic Buff. Also, 100% electric immune makes it very easy to cover all your elements for places like the pyramid/hells. Haven't taken my giant to hells yet but he does very well in the pyramid.
Elemental Crown Deflection AC +16 DR 30/ to all elements Immunity: mind, paralysis, sneak attacks Saves Universal +5
This is one of the few builds that doesn't need all your stats maxed out at the same time, so you don't need to wear one of the stat helms. So, assuming your strength and constitution are maxed this helm gives you a hefty 30 DR and leaves your ammy slot open for Ygrettes or one of the Pyramid amulets depending on where you are going.
I also prefer to be wearing one of the beholder plates which cover can cold, sonic, or acid depending on where i'm going.
Velheru plate 25% cold immune, stacks nicely with the Aura of Anhur to provide 75% cold, 75% sonic, 25% magic which is perfect for the pyramid. Slap 100% electric immune from pentavite on, and all you need to worry about is covering the fire/acid. There are plenty of rings you could wear to cover that or if you are blessed which a shunt you could switch in another magic ring to make you better suited for pounding on soul devourers.
Vandalar's Plate 25% sonic immune, perfect for illthids or beholders
Arakins Casement 25% acid immune, not as useful for areas i know well but plenty of acid damage in hells i'm sure.
Tyran
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jan 19, 2007 5:52:35 GMT
Took it against the consorts today and, after a quick look through the log, I'm not optimistic about it. From the looks of it, everytime it got hit, it took 10 more elemental damage from that consort than the previous time and with an ac of 118 (122 with cleric buffs, the max you can et with this build I think - that's in the workshop, not in the hells) and no conceal of it's own (50% or so from mass camo from a friendly druid), it got hit an awful lot. From the brief beginning part of the log I looked at, it started off taking 0 acid damage and very quickly reached the point where it was taking 2x 100 Acid. Electrical was a similiar story, 0 at the start, but by the end of only the very beginning of the log it was getting 2x 80. 1300 hit points don't last long when faced with that.
The saves have me worried as well - it got frightened twice which in Avernus means disaster. Reflex saves for the consort breath are 65 btw so the old 60 no longer cuts it.
If Tyran ever takes Moonbeam against the Consorts, I'd like to know how it does. This was really just a first try with it and it wasn't under the best circumstances so it might be alright with a little gear tweaking and a better battle plan. I'm probably missing something obvious too. Have to study the logs as well - just glanced at them so far.
Did nicely in Avernus and against everything else though.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jan 19, 2007 10:35:54 GMT
Bit more optimistic now that I tried it again with a party a bit more organized and with Saintblood Pearls' Restoration which seemed to be greatly reducing the damage (possibly by removing the increasing vulnerability?). You have to use one before it starts to become a problem, wait till it does and you'll die before you can use a pearl and heal, but if you periodically do it then heal, combined with druids using immutable force I can see it being doable.
And if your repeatedly dying, GS is your friend.
Will saves are still a problem though.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jan 30, 2007 3:03:08 GMT
Syd Geiger at Lvl 60: Saves of 66, 64, 56. Going to use the wisdom artifact if I ever get one.
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Post by setekhi on Feb 2, 2007 6:37:15 GMT
I read that CoT's save bonuses are included in the +20 cap. Is this confirmed or busted by the combat logs, and if it's true, where does that leave this build?
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Post by terroken on Feb 2, 2007 13:02:21 GMT
How much damage are you gettin with the dire mace at your level, I got a stinger version workin of this build at lvl 33 so far and was curious.
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Post by kaldair on Feb 2, 2007 16:18:44 GMT
COT saves are indeed included in the +20 cap. I, however, love using COT instead of any of the other Primary BAB classes because: 1) They get a feat every 2 levels like the fighter does, 2) By having the saves included in the build, I have less juggling to do while trying to cover AC, physical resistances, elemental & exotic resistances, attribute bonuses and saves with gear. One less "thing" to add up on my gear, especially when combining it with at least 5 other areas to add up, makes my life more simple Kaldair
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Post by cathedralmaster on Feb 3, 2007 5:09:56 GMT
I read that CoT's save bonuses are included in the +20 cap. Is this confirmed or busted by the combat logs, and if it's true, where does that leave this build? CoT levels are for the extra feats and slightly better reflex saves, not for the bonus to saves from sacred defense. I honestly don't think you could get better saves than what I have atm without seriously weakening the build.
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Post by setekhi on Feb 3, 2007 5:57:27 GMT
Okay cool, so CoT is just being used like fighter -1 feat with reflex saves. (Deceptive because the bonus saves would be so nice.) Out of curiosity though, is 64 reflex confirmed in the combat log? I honestly don't know if the character sheet lies about saves - it seems to lie about everything else, which is part of what prompted the question. If 64 is the real number then yeah, I don't know that increasing the saves would do anything since you're apparently hitting the highest saves in the game with the maximum percentage (with 1 point to spare). Edit: Checked, and apparently the character sheet does not lie about saving throws. Totally weirded out now.
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Post by setekhi on Feb 10, 2007 8:35:14 GMT
Okay, some questions. I was working this out for Stinger. I think I have it worked out, but I'm not sure I feel great about it.
First of all, ability scores. I found myself wanting to do something like pre-subrace 17 str 9 dex 18 con 8 int, so I would only have to take 1 Great Con feat for prereqs; I'd just have to wait until the LLs for Ambidexterity, which I'm okay with so long as everything works out at 60. So the question is, how necessary are the skill points? Like I just remember everyone saying if you can't take UMD in the LLs it's not really worth it. And I guess you would only need 27 Pickpocket. On the other hand, is the lack of Concentration an issue?
And then, feats. With the Legendary Save feats, I'm looking at some decent saves, but of course this costs a rather worrisome number of feats. I'm going without Thundering Rage, but I have no experience with Terrifying Rage; does it make an impact on the harder LL runs? My slots are really tight, and as it stands I don't like how I'm stuck with Great Strength 5. I'm thinking some Epic Damage Reduction is generally worth it, because no matter how much damage I'm doing I'm not doing anyone any good falling down all the time (unless of course physical damage isn't the issue), but anyways I'd like to get at least Great Str 7 or something, so I'm just looking over everything.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Feb 10, 2007 9:42:11 GMT
So the question is, how necessary are the skill points? Like I just remember everyone saying if you can't take UMD in the LLs it's not really worth it. If you don't take umd, you'll never make it past the dispater let alone past Fierna or Belial, none of which this build can tank. You'll limbo till you fugue against the dispater who will stone you and kill you over and over again cause you lack any way to get GS. The same with Fierna - you die in under a second against her - not even Fusa's dex monk can tank her. GS is vital to this builds survival in the hells. You'll also find yourself limited without BBoDs - another vital spell.
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Post by lala on Feb 10, 2007 10:56:43 GMT
So the question is, how necessary are the skill points? Like I just remember everyone saying if you can't take UMD in the LLs it's not really worth it. If you don't take umd, you'll never make it past the dispater let alone past Fierna or Belial, none of which this build can tank. You'll limbo till you fugue against the dispater who will stone you and kill you over and over again cause you lack any way to get GS. The same with Fierna - you die in under a second against her - not even Fusa's dex monk can tank her. GS is vital to this builds survival in the hells. You'll also find yourself limited without BBoDs - another vital spell. All good points Cath. Regarding Monk tanking issues lower down in Hells I am not surprised, a Monk can never have the same AC as other dex builds because a shield can give +16ac while most monk builds only gain about +10 to +12max from Wisdom if also maxing dex.
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Post by setekhi on Feb 10, 2007 11:52:48 GMT
Okay, cool. Somehow I missed the line about GS before heh, but I finished calculating my skill points anyways. So here's what I ended up with.
"Stinger" (secret UltraRare subrace) - requires Human (changes Appearance) STR +4, DEX +2, CON +2, WIS -2, CHA -2, free feat: Spring Attack, increased base movement rate - fast, able to walk on quicksand, increases character size to large
17 - 21 - at 60: Str 50 base 9 - 11 18 - 20 8 - 6 wis 8 - 8 int 8 - 6
50 Str makes 62 with items, which gives you a +26 modifier, which gives you an even 13% damage immunity, so I decided to leave it there.
Same level order as before, only the first CoT levels are two levels up. I needed the bonus feat to be epic, and I make up for the saves in the end.
This may look a little weird because I ordered the feats as I went, in sections, not by level, and added the levels after I tested to make sure it would work.
=Pre-Epic (8) 1: Luck of Heroes, Toughness 3: Weapon Prof (Exotic) 6: Weapon Foc (Dire Mace) 9: Two-Weapon Fighting 12: Imp Crit (Dire Mace) 15: Iron Will 18: Lightning Reflexes
=Champion of Torm Bonus Feats (1) 19: Blind-Fight
=Epic (7) 21: Great Con 1 24: Great Str 1 27: Mighty Rage 30: Great Str 2 33: Great Str 3 36: Great Str 4 39: Epic Will
=CoT Epic Bonus Feats (3) 21: Armor Skin 28: EDR 1 30: EDR 2
=Epic Barbarian Bonus Feats (2) 33: Epic Weapon Foc 37: EDR 3
=LL (7) 42: Legendary Luck 45: Legendary Reflexes 48: Legendary Will 51: Epic Prowess 54: Great Str 5 57: Ambidexterity 60: Imp Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills:
=At 40: Discipline 42 Tumble 41 Pickpocket 27 UMD 43 CC Concentration 4
=At 60: Discipline 63 Concentration 30
At the end of the day your saves with this should be: Fort 65, Reflex 64, Will 62. No Thundering or Terrifying Rage, so no need for any Intimidate ranks. Imp Crit looks like a feat that could go since your crit range isn't exactly enormous, if one needed a feat that was left out, but I'll leave it alone.
You end up taking Luck, Legendary Luck, Lightning and Legendary Reflexes, and Iron, Epic and Legendary Will. But it pays off.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Feb 10, 2007 19:49:04 GMT
You might want to consider not taking the dual weapon feats - from what I've seen, Tyran's barb doesn't look to be doing a whole lot less damage than mine (he lacks them) so I'm not really sure how vital those feats are - you might do better by dropping them for something else.
Haven't played a barb without them though so I really can't say for certain.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Feb 21, 2007 19:32:05 GMT
Here's my two cents now that I've played my barbarian through Phleg successfully....
1.) I think its a huge mistake not to take all the barbarian rage feats. They are buggy at the moment, but they will be fixed soon. The hells is full of non mind immune monsters and the aura of fear, bursts of fear, save lowering, and other rage affects will make a big difference in the over all success of your character. To remove them essentially leaves you with a strength fighter with high saves. Plus as I've said before not getting these feats knowing that any future changes to the class will likely revolve around them could be a disaster. I would even go as far to say as missing out on shapestrong rage with a large race could be the decision that ultimately makes a sound character less than ideal. In short get everything because you never know whats coming up around the corner.
2.) I was fortunate enough to leave my final "free feat choice" long enough to pick up legendary will. My barbarians end saves are 66 fort, 63 reflex, and 63 will. The magic number for saves in the hells is 65 for the bottom level, since 60 is the magic number and that layer lowers your saves by 5. So, over all I'm not that bad off though I could have worked in the legendary luck feat to perfect the build.
3.) My barbarian's damage output is more viable than I first thought. Physical damage is huge in the hells and my barbs massive strength and 19-20 raged enhancement bonus allow him to do plenty of it. Sure he doesn't crit as much or as high as a WM, but there are plenty of crit immune bosses and monsters that my barbarian does just as well or better on. If I had to remake my barbarian I would use malephant and take the legendary save feats and damage reduction instead of the ambidex set up.
4.) A strength build really needs good saves and large amounts of hp to survive. The hells eat your ac and saves as you drop further and further down. Eventually what you end up surviving on alot of the time is your hp and DR. This build has plenty of both. Moonbeam my giant despite these penalties was able to tank the level 4 hell boss. UMD for blades, timestop, and sanctuary is extremely valuable, as is the evasion from the two rogue levels.
5.) Quick plug for the build. To my knowledge there is only one party that has completed the 4th level of hell. That same party has been able to repeat their initial performance. In the initial victory and repeat a Giant of Torm has been one of the characters tanking the pit fiends and other nasties on the level. It's a build that proven its viability in the most difficult areas of the game.
Tyran
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