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Post by setekhi on Feb 21, 2007 22:01:30 GMT
Thanks for the feedback. I've been wrangling with this archetype for a little while, so I'll post where I'm at. (Posted a different thread but miscalculated a few things with it and ultimately deleted it with this information in mind. Ironically I went from having significantly fewer than 30 barbarian levels to having more.) Anyways, here's what I've been levelling up. 32 Barbarian/6 Champion of Torm/2 Rogue Stinger =Starting stats: 17 9 18 8 8 8 =Base (8) Luck of Heroes, Strong Soul Toughness Weapon Foc (Heavy Flail) Imp Crit (Heavy Flail) Iron Will Lightning Reflexes Blind-Fight =Epic (7) Armor Skin Great Con 1-2 Great Str 1 Epic Prowess Epic Weapon Foc Epic Will =Epic Barb (3) Mighty Rage Terrifying Rage Thundering Rage =Epic CoT (3) Epic DR 1-3 =LLs (7) Legendary Luck Legendary Will Legendary Reflexes Great Str 2-5 Fort 67, Reflex 63, Will 63. 50 strength at level 60. 13% physical immunity, stackable DR 17/-. I didn't take the second CoT level pre-epic, basically swapping Knockdown and 1 point of reflex for an epic feat. From there swapping 2 coT for 2 Barb means you keep that epic feat get 1 more point of DR. I considered putting the odd stat point into wis to take Great Wis, but as Strong Soul already gives +1 as a pre-epic and with it you end up at 63 Will (and I'm assuming there won't be issues with DC 65 Will saves in the Hells...), the staggering reflex with the LL barbarian bonus ability scores makes it almost relevant. So here are some questions. My understanding has been that the magic number for saves is based on DC 60 saves. Wouldn't this mean that the magic number is really 58? One would have the same failure percentage chance. So, for the hells, I suppose the target saves would be 63? Another related question: how important is the ability to consistently make the DC 65 reflex saves? How does it compare to, say, a little attack bonus? I see an opportunity to raise your reflex saves by 2 just by taking a rogue level pre-epic, but it would lower your AB by 1 obviously. You could also swap Thundering for Epic Ref or something. I could see how you could get away with just having immunity to the dragon breath element or whatever, but I guess that gets messed up in the hells. How often is Knockdown useful? All I've heard is that it takes a very high AB for it to be useful ever, and I haven't heard anything about it being tactically necessary in any specific places. Thanks for your time, maybe I'll see you all in (the) Hell(s) soon. (Yes, that was bad. xD ) -Set, attempting to relieve a headache with obnoxiousness. =Edit: I thought about it and I do think I'm going to go with the 1 Rog pre-epic with Epic Reflexes. I just have this vision of fighting Asmodeus and finding out he has a pet dragon (Mephistopheles I expect would anyways) or he just likes to throw around DC 65 Fireballs or something goofy and I end up fugueing because I underestimated the hells. 69 Reflex is an awful lot but even with a -5 penalty I'll be good to go. Survivability won out for me.
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Post by kaldair on Feb 26, 2007 19:59:09 GMT
My son recently started playing HG with me & I thought this would be a good initial tank for him to play & learn HG. We have both been pleasantly surprised at this tank's playability in LL areas. We did Dusty a couple of nights ago and I was amazed at how few times he died tanking, considering he was a fresh Immo with standard gear (Hey! Dad worked his butt off fer the last 8 months fer his gear you really think Ima gonna give it to some Newb??? ;ppppp). Well actually he had a couple of Rare items I didn't need (mostly rings) but he played with a majority of Immo gear on and really only had problems in the pit. Anywho, it confirmed for me the solidness of this build Oh btw Tyran you had a char on that run also I don't know if you realized the char with "shrunkaura" in his name was playing yer build or not Kaldair
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Post by setekhi on Mar 21, 2007 13:20:17 GMT
Having gotten reasonably high level and now that we have the numbers in, if I were to rebuild this character I believe I would feel okay backing off the reflex saves. So in hindsight the pre-epic rogue level was unnecessary You could also do the Thundering thing if you really felt like it. I believe there's only one map on the mod where you would particularly notice the lowered saves. Also, I will note that my skill point calculations were screwed up, and with 8 int and human base you won't have enough for pickpocket; no other problems however. In any case I plan to take my character as-is to 60. I like being able to self-buff and scare some mobs in the process and everyone likes damage reduction.
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Post by flynn01 on Mar 31, 2007 20:02:34 GMT
So, are the three two weapon feats needed for large toon to get the two extra attacks from dual weapon?
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Post by flynn01 on Apr 3, 2007 20:19:12 GMT
Sorry, I meant the scripted attacks from double weapons.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Apr 3, 2007 21:12:50 GMT
If you read the posts above you will see the answer is yes
Tyran
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Post by flynn01 on Apr 3, 2007 22:29:03 GMT
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Post by Hercules on May 31, 2007 12:17:55 GMT
i was wondering bout fighter lvl instead of CoT. How do this turn out?
i have heard that CoT levels are for boosting saves, but i hear that it for this specified class is a cap (that would be obtained rather easy from right gear)
If that is the case, would fighter lvl instead be to prefer or if not, why?
Tnx for a good build.. already in progress copying it !
Hercules - Noob barbarian builder
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Post by phalthallus on May 31, 2007 12:54:10 GMT
You are correct, that the CoT saves count towards the +20 cap. The reason for CoT over fighter is for its primary saving throw (which does NOT count towards the cap); CoT's get Reflex as their primary save. So essentially CoT is chosen over Fighter because of the boost to Reflex saves.
Edit: Also, it will help prevent you from suffering an XP penalty, with CoT being a Prestige Class.
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Post by tyranlthixis on May 31, 2007 19:35:48 GMT
Cot levels are there partially for reflex saves, partially for extra feats. Plus if you used fighter you'd end up with an xp penalty. Also with the new armor changes this build can take advantage of the mid range armors nicely (and any new bur ones that get added). Starting with 10 dexterity will leave you with.... 14 at the end (+8 dex bonus with +12 dex item) which will give you an extra +3 on your ac with those armors. A starting dex of 12 and greater would give you +9 dex bonus at level 60 and allow you to wear the lesser chain. I'm currently sporting the Druid UR chain. The other good news about dex especially if you do the +15 dex for the extra dual wielding attacks is your dex will break 30 at level 60 and make you one of the few strength fighters that can both dish out large amounts of damage and save against dex related checks (knockdown, domination). The max AC for this build is now 125 (129 with girding). Honestly with 120 to 123 ac Moonbeam does fine (even though his build is less than perfect) and doesn't die any more than any of the RDD abominations and tin cans I've partied with. The big difference I'm seeing is Moonbeam hits harder than most of them. The +19 or +20 enhancement bonus on his dis weapon + extra sonic damage rips through any hells monsters soak. A bur race variant should be getting upwards of 82-84 AB with strength artifact. So, should do even more damage that what I'm seeing on my barb. Also, been messing with his gear trying to get his fear DC up. The fear aura works great now. I'm currently using overwhelming solidarity (gauntlets +15) and a crown of the empire (helm +10). I know the Azmo gloves have +30 intimidate on them also so I'm eager to finish the final layer of hell with him now...hoping that I roll well on loot split of course . Will post a working gear set up as I find more items. I'm sure there are plenty of set/ur/bur items out there that i'm not aware of. Tyran
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Post by tyranlthixis on Aug 14, 2007 21:00:59 GMT
Critical Hit Version
Base Race: Maelephant (Human) Barb 15/COT 8/Barb 15/Rogue 2
Str 16(20) Dex 14 Con 16(22) Wis 8 Intel 12 Char 8
Stat selection while leveling: All Strength
Feats Free: Heavy Armor, Toughness, ESF Intimidate, ESF Taunt
1st Level Luck of Heroes Blooded (will allow you to take tumble as class skill in LL with Legendary feat)
Pre epic Feats Weap prof (exotic) Weapon focus (scythe or one of the double weapons) Improved crit (scythe or one of the double weapons) Power Attack Cleave Great Cleave Blind Fighting Iron Will
Epic Feats (Take the Great strength feats during regular feat levels else you'll run into problem later) Great Strength 1-3 MIghty Rage Thundering Rage Terrifying Rage Overwhelming Critical Devestating Critical Armor Skin Epic weapon focus (Scythe or other) Epic Prowess
Legendary Feats LSA (Tumble) Legendary Luck Legendary weapon focus (Scythe or other) Legendary Will Great strength (4-6)
Skills (maxed to 60) Discipline Tumble Intimidate (for terrifying rage DC) Taunt Listen UMD (43)
Pros Excellent Saves (lowest is reflex 60) Weapon master like criticals 4 additional AC from LSA Tumble from standard build Large amounts of Hit Points High attack bonus Large amount of natural DR Instant moderate lasting critical immunity Can use medium armor for higher AC at the cost of some DR
Cons Limited Concealment options
Below is a template for Moonbeam who I made into an updated version of the double weapon extra attacks user. Posted if for those who are still interested in a character with extra attacks and shield AC.
Double Weapon/Extra Attacks Version
Base Race: Stinger (Human) Barb 15/COT 8/Barb 15/Rogue 2
Str 16(20) Dex 13(15) Con 17(19) Wis 8(6) Intel 10 Char 8(6)
Stat selection while leveling: All Strength
Feats
1st Level Luck of Heroes Blooded (will allow you to take tumble as class skill in LL with Legendary feat)
Pre epic Feats Weap prof (exotic) Weapon focus (double weapon) Improved crit (double weapons) Ambidexterity Two Weapon Fighting Blind Fighting Iron Will
Epic Feats (Take the Great strength feats during regular feat levels else you'll run into problem later) Heavy Armor (recommended otherwise another great Con) Great Con 1-2 Great Strength 1 MIghty Rage Thundering Rage Terrifying Rage Improved 2 weapon fightying Armor Skin Epic weapon focus (Scythe or other) Epic Prowess
Legendary Feats Legendary weapon focus (Double weapon) LSA (Tumble) Legendary Luck Legendary Will Great strength (2-4)
Skills (maxed to 60) Discipline Tumble Intimidate (for terrifying rage DC) Taunt UMD (43)
Tyran
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Post by tyranlthixis on Aug 15, 2007 0:43:10 GMT
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Post by phalthallus on Aug 15, 2007 3:12:26 GMT
Thanks for the pre-emptive update Ty. Two things: you have two weapon foci feats pre-epic. I'm guessing one shouldn't be there? And you have LSA (Parry) in your list of bonuses, but I think you meant Tumble. Same for the 1st level feat - Barbarians already get Parry as a class skill. You said Blooded, but the reason why says Parry. I'm nit-picky. (sorry)
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Post by tyranlthixis on Aug 15, 2007 4:05:00 GMT
Fixed. Wrote it out before heading off to work. Will double check with paper copy when I get home. Thanks for the heads up.
Tyran
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Post by dragonlance007 on Aug 22, 2007 15:48:03 GMT
About your updated Mael build. I really dont see the point in taking exotic weapon prof for double sided weapons if you dont work in the dual weapon fighting feats for the extra attacks now that the threat range is nurfed. You could stick with martial weapons and use a greatsword, great axe, or heavy flail and have better base damage and the same threat range/multiplier while also saving yourself a pre-epic feat that could be used for lightning reflexes.
just my 2 cents.
~DL
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