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Post by maljin on Jul 12, 2008 8:47:39 GMT
Unless you can get heavy armor prof from another source I think you should take it. For a shifter only the enh bonus of the armor applies, not the base or possible dex mod; so a heavy armor with 18 (+2 from girding) is superior than a medium armor with 17 (+2). Beside that, the standard physical immunity on heavy armors tends to be higher (the wiki lists 30% for heavy and 20% for medium armor). This may not be true for every armor you'll find, but what other feat would give you +1 ac and 10% physical immunity if not heavy armor prof?
I'm not sure if you need martial weapon prof though. I skipped it on my shifter as it's an open subby and I think with monk and druid weapon prof I'm fine, now with the new cep weapons (monks got quite a few new ones) like the wheel, nunchaku, goad and so on. Maybe there's some great martial weapon with other properties than damage (maybe damage immunity, +stats or something like this) out there, but if there is I haven't found it yet.
With the subby I chose I got a free feat (but compared to the lizardfolk shifter in the open build forums) and I opted for imp expertise at the cost of great fort. It takes a while to get the hang of it, but that's true for most shifters unless you don't use the radial menu to shift. But the +10 ac really helps while using your special abilities (it might even help while running around as long as you don't use the wsad keys).
I didn't take any weapon feats (no focus, no specialization), first because I didn't have room for the feats and second because I thought I'd rather rely on my special abilities than melee. This might change once the shifter changes will come into play, but I guess you'll have to consider much more than those 6 damage, a better crit range and some ab.
maljin
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Post by Grogbot on Jul 12, 2008 10:07:25 GMT
OK thanks for that - I forgot about monk weapons later in the build - thanks for clarification re: heavy armour properties
For what it's worth, I'm now taking HAP and ignoring martial. I'll probably do the unarmed feats (well, improved crit, focus and creature spec anyway), at the cost of Great Fort.
I'm actually already around L20, but I mucked up skills - took Concentration for some reason (pay attention Grog, use latest build and not outdated ones) and now can't afford Discipline/Parry and Tumble dumps, so will reincarnate after 21 to fix this.
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Post by dodrudon on Jul 12, 2008 15:59:04 GMT
Scrap the melee feats, your AB is too pitiful to land any hits except on a few random 20s. Even if you do end up in a party with a RDD, Lash, Cleric, Bard, um... what else lowers AC... well anyways, you're much more useful using your special abilities than meleeing, except for the occasional instances when an extra tank is needed, and those instances are quite rare, rare enough that you'd rather spend feats on defense rather than meleeing.
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Post by fasut on Aug 17, 2008 15:20:20 GMT
and how about the maximize spell feat? you could cast infinite maximized ice storms in rakshasa form with it. is it worth it? especially in combination with impr. expertise?
and why does this build so extremely much points in wisdom? only the mind blast of the mind flayer and the monk ac uses the wis modifier. so why increasing it any further than needed?
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Post by chirikov on Aug 17, 2008 21:04:04 GMT
ice storm has to beat spell resistance, and your spell penetration while shifted isnt that good. you can read the book to boost it, but its still a little underpowered, plus most players frown upon using loot-breaking spells in areas where there is loot to be had
wisdom is pretty much the only stat that will not get overwritten in different shapes, and its also a boost to your ac thanks to the monk level. you can try boosting other stats like str or dex, but they become wasted points when you are in a form that overwrites them
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Post by tyranlthixis on Nov 27, 2008 16:12:08 GMT
Upated with a few thoughts and a starter build
Tyran
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Post by Onyx [SL] on Nov 28, 2008 7:54:44 GMT
Thank you for updating your build Tyranlthixis. With these new changes to the shifter it's good to have a guide out there to help us make our choices. I think it's mandatory that you take legendary wildshape 3 times due to it's unlimited shifts in a fight. Plus if you want to be effective with your DC's above 50 you have to or else you won't be helping the party.
I'm hoping with you and Sabre's testing you find out whats working and not working and report to the DM staff so they can make any more improvements to the class so that it's a viable choice to be able to take it to Nessus and be a asset not a liability to the party.
Me myself I splashed Monk for the evasion feat at lvl 40 plus at level one monk you get the improved unarmed strike. Then increased my skills in parry, discipline and tumble to 43.
Didn't take Blooded instead took legendary reflex instead of legendary skill tumble. May regret it later but due to lack of AC I might as well get ready to make a build that will be mostly be in the back of the party with the spell casters so I took Planer as my three legendary choices. I also took the book spell penetration to help out my Planar spell attacks.
I maxed out my WIS starting off as you did with Anarch and took the WIS arti so at lvl 60 with equipment my WIS is at 68. Can you tell me how WIS play's a factor in shifting I think I missed that part. Thanks.
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Post by maljin on Nov 28, 2008 11:00:54 GMT
Thanks a lot for the build; it's good to have some guideline to follow when building myself. I got some questions and comments:
First about saves: While playing around with the different shapes in the test chamber (which means I didn't have access to the LFF forms) I noticed that no forms did overwrite my con; but all of them did str and dex. Going 10/10 druid/shifter pre-epic will net you a total of 14+41=55 fort and 10+41=51 reflex (will is over the top anyway); counting everything but save feats and base (41 is with +12 to stats from items) attributes. With great fort and lightning reflex you'll get to 57 and 53 respectively. Will the legendary forms overwrite your base con (and maybe lower it)? Because if not, fort will reach 60 (+3 from your base 16) as well. And is the dex your forms will get you enough to get away with only lightning and not epic reflexes? I've notices that some forms, usually the ones using spells or abilities (pre LFF of course) had an awful dex score (like 7 or 11) which would even lower that 53 reflex according to my way of calculating it.
Something about unarmed combat feats: You did chose to get them all but legendary focus to get two tiers of LFF3. So I assume this shifter should to be able to do both tanking and using abilities to help your party? I don't know yet at what kind of shifter build we'll look for the "typical base beginner friendly shifter build" but wouldn't it be a possibility to have tank shifters with more pre-epic ranger levels for bab, all the unarmed combat feats (including legendary) but only one tier of LFF3 (I don't know which shapes got the most tank potential but for versatility I'd say humanoid) and lower dc's on many of the forms abilities because of more ranger levels. While the shifter that's focusing on using abilities at his best will skip most ranger levels, the combat feats and maybe pick up legendary reflexes and imp expertise to counter the low dex score and ac of "caster" forms at the cost of lower ab in tank forms.
I noticed you didn't spend skill points for animal empathy (which will help your harpy curse song), pick pocket (for the pixies 'spill potion' ability) and taunt (pixies 'mock' ability). I suppose animal empathy had to go because bards are usually mandatory in any party so there will nearly always be someone who can curse better than the harpy form. And the 'mock' ability will only increase your taunt skill up to where you'd got by spending points into it. But what about pick pocket? Would you share your thoughts?
thanks for reading through all that maljin
btw.: about the saves calculation I'm using: It's 20(bonus cap) + 10(epic) + 5(legendary) +6(attributes increase from items) = 41 which is true for any class (at level 60). The only thing you have to add is feat bonus, base save which depends on pre-epic class- and level-split and base attributes (the white number without any items at level 60 which can be negative if you've got 8 dex = -1 for example)
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Post by Yomi on Nov 29, 2008 7:55:57 GMT
A few thoughts while freshly levelling a new shifter. This is all about sub-40, not level 60 play, and I'm not HG's best shifter player either.
AC is definitely a sore spot -- once shifted the AC drops a lot. Consider both shields and torches since the shield AC won't count -- so look for interesting properties on them. I found the UR torch usable at level 21 to be an excellent choice, though it will lower your unshifted AC (but it'll make your shifted form a lot better).
Based on your equipment it may differ, and this is for level 15-30 ish -- not sure how it'd change later. I found for defense the Kobold Commando actually very good as it has one of the highest AC's and gets a good amount of conceal on top. Rakshasa is even better if you take that form, and Drow Warrior isn't that bad. The undead forms do have the advantage of being crit immune and most (though not Risen Lord) have a decent amount of conceal. Marut (construct) is also crit immune and has a decent AC.
For tanking offense, the Demonflesh golem and Marut are quite good. Dire Tiger is definitely the highest AB other than constructs, though Kobold Commando isn't far behind and might do more damage when you add the sneaks and the noticebly better defense. I have not been overly thrilled with bashing things for the most part -- my AB was always quite low compared to the real tanks. Besides, if I want to play a tank, I'll play a tank. Kenku sounded nice for ranged attacks but the AB and rate of fire was very disappointing for me. Risen Lord looks cool but the only advantage it has over Drow, Whipmaster, Kobold, or Tiger is being crit immune (obviously this is before taking LFF Undead where it gets on-hit Slay Living) -- the AB and AC and conceal are all lower. At least you'll look very cool while swishing.
Basilisk gaze is ridiculously overpowered at the moment. It'll kill all kinds of things, and all you need is a meat shield to get the mobs to line up for you. Another great form is Baelnorn -- once you have that you can make dry bones out of all sorts of undead with your sunburst and posifod. Heck the Vampyr's in Gaobin will even heal you in the middle of fighting them. Those two would be the bread and butter of power levelling.
Other fun abilities include the Marut electric pulse, which when combined with it's decent defense and decent tanking make it a nice generic form. The Azer firestream does a ton of damage. The Rak has very good defense with its conceal and those ice storms really damage a mass. The Slaad spit is effective for some boss types. The Banshee wail is kind of nice but it's very expensive in EPs -- sadly Basilisk Gaze even works on more mobs as well. Personally I didn't see a lot of call for Medusa, Mindflayer, or Xorn while levelling -- anything vulnerable to those typically could just be Basilisk killed, and Xorn's AB is so low that I'd swish repeatedly on anything level appropriate (it's the lowest of all forms on my tests). Manticore was useful every now and then for ranged damage though you need to pay attention to whether your spikes actually cause damage or just a stream of 0's.
Edit: did Xul, Lolth, and Immo last night. The Mantakloss drow are, no surprise, a lot tougher than previous opponents. Manticore spikes bounce off them all. I found Rakshasa to be mildly useful for the ice storms if you get a bunch together, and quite nice for the immo run where they're typically more vulnerable to it. The defense of the Rak form is also very helpful. Baelnorn was also a go-to form as you get a lot of posifods and they hit almost all the time doing ~100 points each strike. Most useful for things like the matrons and you'll stand a good chance of outdamaging a wizard if you use it on the immortal himself -- definitely better than Death Slaad and hugely better than tanking him. Basilisk works though their saves are so high it'll be a tough sell at level 35-40, and Basilisk is pretty vulnerable to their attacks. The Whipmaster inflicts are useful to the party and at this level you should be able to hit reasonably often (especially if you can get a GMW), or go Kobold for ok damage and better defense. Lastly Marut is again a pretty solid crit-immune tank with good AB and the pulse attacks work ok on some things.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Nov 30, 2008 4:37:59 GMT
The lack of animal empathy was just a mistake. I took the skill on my reincarnated shifter. There are plenty of skill points for that skill. The only major skill you are not going to be able to max is concentration, but 40 points or so in that skill (via leftover skill points) is plenty to make checks. What is troubling is the lack of "shifter gear". That is non caster druid gear with animal empathy on it. It's very difficult to get any points in animal empathy from a typical shifter get up.
As for form AB. Ideally you would like to take LSF unarmed but I didn't see any way to take it without damaging my form abilities. I found dire tiger and minotaur to have ABs high enough to make it worthwhile to focus in even without the final focus. Especially since the dire tiger knockdown attacks are fantastic and you want to make that form as viable as possible. Additionally shifters could play a "fill in" tank roll should the group need that. Forms like risen lord pushing AB is even more important since you need to land hits to land slay livings and there is the potential to do group pwnage with whirlwind attack (skill possessed by risen lord) if you can land your attacks.
Tyran
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Post by tyranlthixis on Nov 30, 2008 4:42:43 GMT
Saves are going to be something I need to do a bit more research on. I'm finding they are adequate as is, but they vary greatly from form to form.
Tyran
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Post by maljin on Nov 30, 2008 9:15:05 GMT
Edit: did Xul, Lolth, and Immo last night. The Mantakloss drow are, no surprise, a lot tougher than previous opponents.[...] Did you try mindflayer? Before the changes I often used this one from guardians till ssithrak (immo run was something else, not much fun there with a shifter before the changes) and it worked very well, as all those mentioned above haven't great will saves and are usually not mind immune. I don't know how it works now as the dc of the mindflayer shape is quite a bit lower but if it lands the party loves stunned drow/lizards/whatever; psionic damage is also guaranteed to have some effect on those high resistance mobs in the aforementioned areas. maljin
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Post by Yomi on Dec 1, 2008 6:08:59 GMT
Mindflayer used to have a really high DC vs. the others. It's now on par with the others (equal to Basilisk gaze and only 1 higher than Medusa). However it is applied to Will rather than Fort. I recall trying it a few times and not having much success in Drow. My DC was 37-38 and their base saves are 40-43. In other words even the Drey have to roll a 1 to fail until you're higher level. Based on my logs from the xul/lolth/immo run, many of the things have lower fort saves than will, meaning if I used Basilisk they'd die on a 1 or 2, vs. Mindflayer which would stun on a 1.
For Ssithrak, yes the Mindflayer always used to be the best form at low LLs. I haven't tried it post-changes. I know their will saves are definitely lower than their forts, but it's still about 45 base, which means they'll need to roll a 1 to fail until you're over level 45 or have an effective bard.
For Desert I found Marut form quite useful, as the electric pulse really does a number on the Living Sands and does some damage to other things as well. Rak Ice Storms work somewhat, but lots of things will be immune as you can't penetrate their spell resistance until higher level (your spell penetration is druid+shifter level, so probably 1 less than your total level, Deverials have SR 70 and Sanders/Screelings have SRs of 65). Similarly the Banshee Wail and Baelnorn posifod work great for the Stingers but just bounce off most stuff in the actual desert in the 40s. The Silt Scarabs, Silt Scorps, and Drocs are especially good to hit with either Marut Pulse or Ice Storm. At later levels with higher DCs and most importantly higher AB, tanking may be more appropriate, but at level 42 the AB in tanking forms is about equal to a caster druid, and my swings missed a whopping 52% of the time (vs. the tanks with 20 higher AB missing about 10-15% of the time). Note that if you concentrated on tanking including WF, EWF, LWF, Epic Prowess, 3 LFF's in the form, and enough levels to get the LAB up some more, the AB ought to be more reasonable (high 80s full buffed I think, dragon form may be a bit higher).
Edit: Thanks to Acaos I looked more carefully at my logs and indeed the Banshee Wail goes through SR (Rak Ice Storm and Baelnorn FoD do have to penetrate SR). It's a low DC but it should be at level 42. Definitely worth doing if you're massing in the deverial-rich maps.
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Post by Acaos on Dec 1, 2008 16:16:28 GMT
Similarly the Banshee Wail and Baelnorn posifod work great for the Stingers but just bounce off most stuff in the actual desert in the 40s. The Banshee death howl does not respect SR. Acaos
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Post by tyranlthixis on Dec 1, 2008 17:10:18 GMT
Dragon Shape, Strength 80, Dexterity 48 Saves with above build in dragon, F/R/W 61/66/74 Unbuffed AC 127
I have mixed feelings about taking dragon. It is somewhat similar to dragon post shifter changes. Better melee and weaker defenses than before. They are a universal tank with very nice AB. Their breath weapon is a bit lack luster. It is D/C 53 and and you can usually outdamage it with melee unless there is a lot of vulnerable monsters on the screen. If you have girding of the faithful, bard song, and barkskin on this is probably the best overall tank of the shifter forms. Dragons high dexterity allows parry to soar quite high, so it is highly crit resistant. With song discipline can get over 120. Its resistant to all dex and strength checks, and has the most robust saves of any of the forms.
Having said that there are host of problems with the form. Dragon breath damage is decent but not impressive. Fire dragon's breath attack no longer works underwater, taking away that unique niche previous held by shifters. Wing buffet is lack luster as is. It takes a very long time to work and has a less than impressive knockdown ability.
Wyrmlings are ok for setting up a boss fight, but don't have much use against rabble.
In general, I would say dragon form is the weakest of the epic form choices to make right now. Not to say it is useless but the melee role is filled by so many other forms now and dragon doesn't really shine in its breath or knockdown attacks. Basically if you want elemental damage you're almost always better off switching weapons in melee form to match monster weakness. Melee will always beat breath in overall damage if you have the right weapon on. The only tiny niche is the few instances where you actually want a single damage type going rather than a couple. For example, to bring down a stubborn superior or elite in the hells. Sadly with fire breath limited to above water areas now that niche has shrunk considerably.
Additionally investing in the form means you are not getting some of the truly unique abilities the other form groups provide (protective aura, positive fods, poison breath insta kills etc etc). Basically while dragon is a robust tank, it does not provide you with anything you can't get from the other form group choices. Also, keep in mind the large size will make you very unpopular. You may be stable but the dead guy under your feet may not be so happy when people cannot target him with a rez scrolls.
From what I've seen I think outsider or golem have the best complementary power set to wildshape atm. If I could do it again, it would be a toss up between those two.
Tyran.
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