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Post by dodrudon on Jan 29, 2007 8:17:07 GMT
I don't like melee, I just wanted to get Druid/Monk lvls balanced out to maybe go Dwarf without the xp penalty, to get the con bonus, making EDR easier to get. (Could go gnome but dwarves at least get darkvision)
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Post by tyranlthixis on Jan 29, 2007 8:25:04 GMT
Dragon breath DC is the most important part of your dragon form as a shifter. If you want a melee dragon (i don't recommend it) use a different build. In all honesty dragon the very last form I go to. Usually read the monsters description. If its not mind immune I use a combination of mindflayer and vampire. Mindflayer to stun large groups and the vampire to recruit something with decent AB to kill the others. More people I have in the group the less I use vampire, since large groups usually end up hitting the thing i'm trying to dominate anyway. Next I will try medusa stone gaze if they are mind immune. Then I will try manticore. If those don't work I'll try rak and, stone golem. Then I'll try to hit the monsters with my dragon breath taking into account the elemental immunities that are present and the kind of kickback i'm taking. For example, the whole ssissthrax area is fire weak but the red dragon is cold vulnerable. If its a single target and its DR is high and the target is element immune/has an ungodly reflex save, I will try Death Slaad. If everything has failed and i'm out of ideas, I'll melee in dragon form (usually acid). At that point you're a large hard to kill fighter with poor AB. Not very much fun. Having said that you can at least be the person who "keeps things busy" while others are free to do the damage. Dragons also the form to go to if you're taking too much heat and need to go into survival mode. When buffing my main buffs are.... Epic mage armor (non dispellable 'back up' armor buff) Barkskin (either druid/plant cleric, or my own beefed up legendary transmutation version) Kobold Invisible (unlimited buff from the epic version of the kobold, gives 49% conceal) Monsterous regen Any other buffs you can bum off others Tyran
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Post by tyranlthixis on Jan 29, 2007 8:43:01 GMT
BTW that guide doesn't really apply to this server. Its just going to confuse you if you read it.
Tyran
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Post by dodrudon on Jan 29, 2007 9:57:44 GMT
I wasn't planning on meleeing as a shifter, but I'm wondering if the 5dr/6mo/29sh is a good alternative. Do the 5 druid levels matter that much? You only lose level 5 and 4 spells (not much there, and plus they don't last that long anyways). I'd like to go 5/6/29 so there's no penalty if I go dwarf, to get the +2 to con and -2 to cha. The +2 to con is of course helpful, and then I was secondly wondering if EDR would be handy (ie does a shifter tank often enough or take enough damage to make EDR worthwhile?).
I use that guide as a reference (ie to look up skill boosts for certain forms).
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Post by fragment on Jan 29, 2007 13:13:15 GMT
I wasn't planning on meleeing as a shifter, but I'm wondering if the 5dr/6mo/29sh is a good alternative. Do the 5 druid levels matter that much? You only lose level 5 and 4 spells (not much there, and plus they don't last that long anyways). I'd like to go 5/6/29 so there's no penalty if I go dwarf, to get the +2 to con and -2 to cha. The +2 to con is of course helpful, and then I was secondly wondering if EDR would be handy (ie does a shifter tank often enough or take enough damage to make EDR worthwhile?). I use that guide as a reference (ie to look up skill boosts for certain forms). 1) basilisk gaze - most useful in areas with undeads - depends on shifter+druid levels. You will be using basilisk gaze a lot at least to level 49, making that a very worthwhile ability where DC from druid levels is important. I believe there are more such abilities but I can't look it up atm. 2) regarding the subrace-for-more-CON-idea, please take due note of the abilities that are overwritten by forms. For most forms, 2 or even all 3 physical attributes are overwritten by the shifted forms and will not matter when you are shifted. A few posts above the most important forms are mentioned - if you're hell bent on optimizing physical abilities, optimize for these specific forms. Check the grimoire for detailed info about overwritten physical abilities. Regards!
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Post by dodrudon on Jan 29, 2007 16:32:08 GMT
I've taken those into account. I don't mind having a worse-than-normal basilisk gaze DC, as long as my Medusa gaze, which eventually replaces it, does not suffer. It's also stated Con determines base hp of the different forms, otherwise I'd go minimum Con and boost int or something!
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Post by thedomicron on Jan 29, 2007 16:37:17 GMT
yeah you're cetainly welcome to try mixing it up, i'm sure you'll be alright. what i think you'll realize is what fragment and tyr are trying to tell you: your extra points into charisma dissappear the second you shift into most forms, and then you're left with just lower dc.
you have to remember shifters aren't like the other classes in that con isn't the most important thing out there. i have maxed stonegaze dc on my shifter and it comes out to around 52. that's not very high. it's certainly enough to have a good chance of stoning, but with only 6 gazes/shift at level 60 w/ medusa, be prepared to do lots of shifting.
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Post by dodrudon on Jan 29, 2007 17:57:36 GMT
Err, wait, what? What extra points into Charisma? I think I've been misunderstood several posts in a row so I'll reiterate.
The original build I considered was the Druid 10/Shifter 29/Monk 1, with the monk level at L40.
As a variation, I wanted to go Dwarven Shifter instead of Human, for the additional +2 con dwarves give (they also give -2 cha, but cha isn't important). The reason I'd like to do this is to make getting Epic Damage Reduction easier and cheaper, though it may or may not come at the cost of two wisdom (and thus one wisdom modifier). Using dwarf, I can spend only one stat point to get con, whereas for human I'd have to spend three points, which is unfeasible.
However, while researching this alternative, I discovered that would cause an XP penalty due to the inbalance in druid/monk levels, hence the post in the Drunken Monk Tavern, where I wondered the single level of monk at 40 would cause all my LLs to have an XP penalty as well (which was yes).
So my next thought was to balance out Druid and Monk levels, with 5 of each before level 20, then one more monk at level 40, which would solve the XP penalty problem. But then that would cause the buidl to lose 5 druid levels, so I looked up what that would affect.
Basically, you'd lose the ability to cast level 4 and 5 spells (no big loss), and the DCs of the following abilities would be affected: Dragon Breath (-5), Basilisk's Gaze (-5), and Mindflayer's Mind Blast (-5). Those are the ONLY forms affected by loss of Druid levels. My question then (and now) is whether Epic Damage Reduction is worth losing those DCs.
For Basilisk's Gaze, I wasn't too worried because Medusa eventually replaces it and I can live with that, and for Mind Blast, the DC is so high anyways (maxed even with only 5 druid levels is 49+28+5=82), so the only real big loss is -5 to Dragon Breath.
I hope that makes my train of though clearer (is that a word? more clear?).
So my question is: is it worth losing the human bonus feat and bonus skillpoint, losing 5 DC for Dragon Breath, to get Epic Damage Reduction (which will cost a stat point and three feats)?
Also, does Monk Speed work while shifted?
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Post by kaldair on Jan 29, 2007 18:35:46 GMT
Dodrudon I'm curious - your idea loses 1 feat for non-human & three feats to put in the EDR feats - what 4 feats are you willing to give up to implement your idea? I think that would be the most telling way to analyze the benefits or lack thereof?
Kaldair
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Post by dodrudon on Jan 29, 2007 19:30:54 GMT
You get 20 feats to choose from post-L20. Let's say 14 of those are assigned to Great Wisdom 10 and your four shapes. That leaves 6 feats. Even if you take Armor Skin, you have 5 left. EWS Creature I don't see as necessary, neither is Epic Prowess, because you won't be meleeing, only tanking. The save feats would be nice if you're able to fit those in. So instead, spend one of those feats on Great Con, take 3 EDR, and you still have a single feat left over to put into a save feat.
Speaking of which, how are saves for shifters? They change depending on shape I presume? Will save is through the roof, don't know about fort or reflex though.
Oh, wait, skip on the save feat and go Epic Skill Focus Animal Empathy.
Another alternative is to drop an early stat point into con (pre-L20), then only get 9 Great Wis later on (which costs you 2 wis, which loses you 1 point of damage on Azer's Fire Stream, and 1 DC on Mind Blast, which again has an already monsterous DC, and 1 ac, so no big deal). In fact, once you hit the 30 Wis for Dragon Shape, I don't see why you'd need any more wisdom.
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Post by kaldair on Jan 29, 2007 19:59:22 GMT
Haven't done a study on the various saves but I know I never fail a save while shifted in any form. The analysis on the feat tradeoffs I'm not qualified to comment on either. Regarding the wisdom's taken after 30 for the dragon form, however, I do see two issues.
Monk wisdom-based AC DOES carry into all forms. The 8 AC I would lose by stopping at 30 Wis on my FA would HURT when standing around trying to cast spikes or gaze. Wisdom DOES carry into all forms. If I stop at 30 my will saves will be 8 (If there is a linear progression which I'm unsure of) lower. I suspect the reason I've never failed a will save shifted is because I DID put all my points into Wisdom.
Kaldair
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Post by flynn01 on Jan 29, 2007 21:09:19 GMT
Epic Prowess: your chaos spittle is a ranged touch attack. Hard enough to land against some dragons with this ab-challenged class. I, personally, use dragon form a lot (only shifting out when thoughtless architects built narrow doorways in things, ::smiley: so I don't think the EDR feats are worth the hit to breath DC.
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Post by cathedralmaster on Feb 12, 2007 20:18:50 GMT
As far as LLs go, I'd recommend the following (for the Dopple version) over what's given in the HGEpic page:
41. Shifter - 42. Shifter - Great Wisdom 10 (42), Wis +1(43) 43. Shifter - 44. Shifter - Wis +1(44) 45. Shifter - Epic Reflexes 46. Shifter - Wis +1(45) 47. Shifter - 48. Shifter - Legendary fortitude, Wis +1(46) 49. Shifter - 50. Shifter - Wis +1(47) 51. Shifter - Legendary Reflexes 52. Shifter - Wis +1(48) 53. Shifter - 54. Shifter - Epic Weapon Specialization (Creature), Wis +1(49) 55. Shifter - 56. Shifter - Wis +1(50) 57. Shifter - Armor Skin 58. Shifter - Wis +1(51) 59. Shifter - 60. Shifter - Epic Prowess, Wis +1(52)
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Post by cathedralmaster on Feb 24, 2007 5:31:46 GMT
Based on the hells, was thinking of this variation:
"Anarch" (secret Beyond UltraRare subrace) - no race requirement CON +4 WIS +6, free feat: Alertness, free feat: Creature Weapon Specialization, free feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency, free feat: Armor Skin, free feat: Creature Epic Weapon Specialization, increased base movement rate - fast
------ 41. Shifter - 42. Shifter - Great Wisdom 10 (42), Wis +1(43) 43. Shifter - 44. Shifter - Wis +1(44) 45. Shifter - Epic Reflexes 46. Shifter - Wis +1(45) 47. Shifter - 48. Shifter - Epic fortitude, Wis +1(46) 49. Shifter - 50. Shifter - Wis +1(47) 51. Shifter - Legendary Reflexes 52. Shifter - Wis +1(48) 53. Shifter - 54. Shifter - Legendary Fortitude, Wis +1(49) 55. Shifter - 56. Shifter - Wis +1(50) 57. Shifter - Epic Skill Focus (Discipline) 58. Shifter - Wis +1(51) 59. Shifter - 60. Shifter - Epic Prowess, Wis +1(52)
Saves in Manticore and Medusa of around 74, 70, 73.
What do you think? Could possibly sacrifice some of the saves for epic damage reduction or something but I don't think that's really wise.
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Post by ducky on Feb 24, 2007 14:56:41 GMT
the lvl progression for this build in hgepic using lizardfolk never shows alertness being taken, and lizardfolk doesnt give alertness. just thought i'd point that out, i learned the hard way.
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