|
Post by starlandra on Feb 5, 2009 17:36:04 GMT
actually it is level 2 my bad, but paly is mainly for a +6 boost to saves.
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on Feb 5, 2009 17:56:18 GMT
Was on Cania last night with this toon. Old Man Steele had almost as many kills as the ploder 84 (87) and 134k damage, 3rd place. He also died a fair amount. AC and glass cannon is definitely a downside, particularly since you want to be a str tank at time. Parry and being able to wear heavy for phys imm% is pretty important to the hardiness of the toon. I think it's a good build, but doesn't fill a tank roll at all. Does anyone know exactly how MS are calculated. It's a Crit then a threat roll. How is that threat roll calclulated. I would like to run the numbers on an ass dagger dexer compared to this toon.
A minja has a 56DC pre demi/arti right?
Also what's the AB compared to a minja?
-G
|
|
|
Post by stonewarrior on Feb 5, 2009 18:21:44 GMT
The DC depends on the subrace. A Koly version for example can have a 56 DC with 66 Str (assumes a Str Arti) which is on par with the Minja you reference. The AB's are likely to be in the same range. The difference, other then 20 to 25 points of AC) is that a Str Ass can actually tank and do respectivable to very high damage. A Dex Assassin can swing there Assassin Dagger forever and do very little damage.
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on Feb 5, 2009 18:26:57 GMT
what makes this toon appealing is losing 2 DC and and 3 on crit range (non wm version at least, only losing 1 crit range with wm) while adding attacks that can MS. I have to admit I am intrigued if I can find a suitable large subby. Notice the AC can be improved.
DC calc is this
the target must roll a fortitude save vs. a DC of 35 + half the Assassin's DEX or STR modifier (whichever is higher) + 1 for every 3 Assassin levels above 29 (including legendary levels) to a max of +7 at level 50.
So a 66 str would give you 35+14+7=56 @ 60 str (as my sample build) would be 35+12+7= 54 with no demi or arti
so RRR's build has the same DC. Ab should be a wash, which now brings you only to the # of MS attacks you can get a round.
so 9 attacks on RRR's build (which means I need to ditch shield on mine... ouch)
seem's the potential is much higher for MS vs minja but a lot more fragile as well
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on Feb 5, 2009 19:19:47 GMT
Doesn't the Threat roll play a part in MS calculation? What is the threat roll?
|
|
|
Post by Yomi on Feb 5, 2009 19:21:21 GMT
A double demi Minja with artifact hits DC 58, as DEX goes to 74 and modifier to 32. It sounds like it's one higher DC from the str ones being discussed which hit 70 str as a top value. Minja gets 7 attacks a round with a 9-20 crit range at top DC 58. The non-WM double scim build gets 9 attacks a round with an 11-20 crit range with top DC 57. It doesn't seem so clear cut as it's certainly not a wash in things other than attacks per round. I agree that two extra attacks per round is worth a lot and may pull it over the top. There's also the damage factor to consider -- a double scim str assassin is going to do a lot more damage on a crit which is more likely to kill the mob outright. The difference, other then 20 to 25 points of AC) is that a Str Ass can actually tank and do respectivable to very high damage. A Dex Assassin can swing there Assassin Dagger forever and do very little damage. AC difference is likely to be more like 25-30. Tanking is hindered a lot if you're dead or sucking heals. To be fair, IMO a Minja isn't all that tough other than the AC so it's not like they never die or have to heal, and they get knocked on their behind a lot by str checks. Also there's a seeming difference in damage amounts between assassins -- some I see doing a reasonable amount (though never a LOT), some very little as you mention. Mine has done over 100k on a run a few times, and that's without weapon switching (some Minja's carry nunchucks to use when attacking crit immune mobs). No question that the Double Scim Str build will do a ton of damage, and therefore add value beyond just insta-kills. P.S. My single demi Minja is ready for Malad, we should take one of each on a run and get a good comparison. Mish and Arch also have superb Minja toons which would do as well or better than mine. Also a little aside that applies to both, which is that I've found if I have a good cleric keeping GR on me, both my kills and survivability skyrocket. Also hanging out near a threader can help a lot.
|
|
|
Post by jonuhey on Feb 5, 2009 21:15:30 GMT
Minja gets 7 attacks a round with a 9-20 crit range at top DC 58. The non-WM double scim build gets 9 attacks a round with an 11-20 crit range with top DC 57. I guess minja gets only 5 attacks that can make a MS... also iirc, it uses a shield for better ac OR a sai for parry bonus... Btw, I did this sheet to compare which build would have a better chance of MS... The double scimmy with 9 attacks is indeed better, but lacking AC isnt a good thing for me... If you want to kill stuff fast without dying IMO you should go with sin dagger and salamander. you'll be ugly, but you still be able to deal a lot of dmg and insta kill. Also if you use salamander and go orc, you can hit the 58DC and still be able to have 9 attacks. This is the link, feel free to ask me anything, cuz it may be totally wrong =PPP spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=psoAHlSgynExlm05xeF6JGw
|
|
|
Post by Yomi on Feb 5, 2009 21:30:18 GMT
Minja gets 7 attacks a round with a 9-20 crit range at top DC 58. The non-WM double scim build gets 9 attacks a round with an 11-20 crit range with top DC 57. I guess minja gets only 5 attacks that can make a MS... also iirc, it uses a shield for better ac OR a sai for parry bonus... You're right, the first 5 attacks are with AD and get the mortal strikes and the two offhand use Sai or shield. So the str double scim build gets 4 more MS opportunities. The primary benefit of a shield on a Minja is probably the additional properties it gives and less AC (a BUR small shield adds less than 10 AC when already in the 130s). I see you're counting Overwhelming Critical on all the str builds. They have enough room to take all the required feats while still reaching 74 STR? You have most of the DC's at 58 which is reachable with 18 to start, +8 from the race and subrace, and 10 feats into the stat (plus artifact and double demi). Can anything but a Half-Orc Juggernaut/Salamander hit 74 str as an assassin? Edit: after more pondering the table I think you're doing 58 only on the builds that can get it, so correct as is. I still wonder about room for the added feats given that a double weapon build already has to add 3 more feats. The fighter bonus feats do help a lot and RRRRoCK's build shows it's possible.
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on Feb 5, 2009 21:58:21 GMT
no... have tested that extensively. And really only Sally works the best
|
|
|
Post by jonuhey on Feb 5, 2009 21:58:29 GMT
I dont think any other race can get to 74 str... unless using bard/rdd splash, what would make you lose an attack each round. Gonna update the sheet with that info...
Btw, an aditional DC in the place of an extra attack isnt worth IMO, you lose some attack to ditch more dmg, and you still keep the killing rate... (in average)
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on Feb 5, 2009 22:19:02 GMT
i too played with the rdd version for 4 more str (1 more DC) and it was not worth it BUT with a double scimmy giving you 8 attacks might not be so bad.
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on Feb 5, 2009 22:21:21 GMT
oh and any +6 str with Half Orc as base race can reach max non rdd str, so juggernaut, and salamander can do it
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on Feb 5, 2009 23:29:37 GMT
just tested a wm with no dev crit.. can be done but nasty hard on saves...not looking worth it for wm at least
|
|
|
Post by stonewarrior on Feb 5, 2009 23:52:45 GMT
Trying to fit WM is just plain greedy.
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on Feb 6, 2009 5:29:41 GMT
well when it comes to builds and me greedy fits... lol
|
|