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Post by jonuhey on Aug 9, 2008 2:05:46 GMT
Hide and move silenty help with GS, no? Im not sure, but before maxing them GS didnt work everywhere, and now it is working...
Isnt Listen needed when u are blind? u cant target things if u cant see them... (I guess =P)
sure I would get a rogue lv if wasnt for the lack of discipline and the shield feat... I dont wanna be slagged easily. another thing is that finding stuff to get +50 to discipline would be kinda hard cuz im stil kinda new to the server, and I dont have all that good items atm D=
taking a rogue lv would not get me the shield proficiency and ESF Open Lock need another feat... to get these 2 feats I need to free 2s... what wouldnt be good, cuz anything I remove will make it worse
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Post by chirikov on Aug 9, 2008 2:35:48 GMT
hide and move silently have no effect for gs. the only time gs fails is in drow, where the local darkness effect bugs it
listen is for beating concealment, not blindness. youll still be able to target things since you have true seeing (and if you dont, you need to take a long hard look at your gear)
slagging is only an issue if you use caster shields - you could use a flag instead, like one of the minauros flags for 100% to an element. even if your build does not have shield proficiency free, there are other ways to obtain it, namely off gear or from a pandect
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Post by flay on Aug 9, 2008 6:55:12 GMT
Ranger gets an extra feat (which can be an epic spell focus if the splash is picked in epic levels, preferrably at 40 to max skills economically), at the cost of a mere 1 spell pen. This means you gain either greater ruin or an additional +2 DC with a LSF. Either is worth it in my opinion. The maxed discipline and free shield proficiency is just a lil' something extra.
You'll want every spell slot you can possibly squeeze out of gear on a wizard, and that means caster shields. Discipline is nice to have for that.
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Aug 9, 2008 23:59:55 GMT
You can get very close to the 90 Discipline mark without much difficulty. 31+50+6-1=86. Slag DC is 90. With bardsong, you've got good chances of avoiding slag without demi bonuses, and with an 8 base strength. Its not so great a risk that its worth splashing a class just for another few discipline, in my opinion. Your spell pen will serve you better, as well good tanks and intelligent play. Hide and move silently have absolutely no relevance to GS. Several things can break GS though - like active cloud spells, continual damage effects like Combust or Melfs, and theres always the lovely Darkness bug. Probably was those things lousing you up. Listen is worthless, because its for reducing enemy conceal when you MELEE Them. Since you're a wizard, you'd better not be meleeing them, right?? Shield feat can also come from a Minauros pandect, or certain other gear choices. So it would be one feat for Open Lock. Of course, if you don't want to try to get a pandect (which isn't easy), I hate not having easy shield feat access enough that I can say the ranger arguments of Flay are defensible, if not a decent option. I am a purist myself, though, and went pure 60 wizzy.  |
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Post by chirikov on Aug 10, 2008 0:08:09 GMT
slag dc is only 90 on certain mobs. dispater has a dc 100 slag check for example |
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Post by jonuhey on Aug 10, 2008 1:02:04 GMT
You can get very close to the 90 Discipline mark without much difficulty. 31+50+6-1=86. Slag DC is 90. With bardsong, you've got good chances of avoiding slag without demi bonuses, and with an 8 base strength. Its not so great a risk that its worth splashing a class just for another few discipline, in my opinion. Your spell pen will serve you better, as well good tanks and intelligent play. Hide and move silently have absolutely no relevance to GS. Several things can break GS though - like active cloud spells, continual damage effects like Combust or Melfs, and theres always the lovely Darkness bug. Probably was those things lousing you up. Listen is worthless, because its for reducing enemy conceal when you MELEE Them. Since you're a wizard, you'd better not be meleeing them, right?? Shield feat can also come from a Minauros pandect, or certain other gear choices. So it would be one feat for Open Lock. Of course, if you don't want to try to get a pandect (which isn't easy), I hate not having easy shield feat access enough that I can say the ranger arguments of Flay are defensible, if not a decent option. I am a purist myself, though, and went pure 60 wizzy. So all those sp will be sitting around without no good use at all? >_< I guess I'll get the ranger lv anyway, Im kinda a pourist too, but not this time =P And reading what u said, I just cant stop thinking about how many things I have yet to learn... Im just choosing a name for him now =P I have lots of fun playing with him, he doesnt deserves an ugly name again =x |
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Post by flay on Aug 10, 2008 1:11:37 GMT
So all those sp will be sitting around without no good use at all? You'll only lose one spell penetration point over a pure wizard. The ranger feat will let you pick up either an additional LSF or greater ruin, depends on the rest of your feat selection. If you want a closer look at the benefits of going pure over 1 ranger splash, just make a pure and non-pure version of the build and compare. |
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Post by jonuhey on Aug 10, 2008 16:05:23 GMT
updated with ranger lv instead of monk/paladin
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Aug 10, 2008 16:31:19 GMT
slag dc is only 90 on certain mobs. dispater has a dc 100 slag check for example True. However, if Dispater is hitting you as a wizard, then something has already gone horribly wrong. Point being that you can, with careful play and skill, AVOID checks easily enough that it isn't (in my opinion) worth sacrificing casting ability in order to withstand something aimed at the meleers. After all, you shouldn't be in the front line with a caster, should you? As to pure vs non-pure, yes...Flay is right in that you get 1 extra feat and lose 1 spell pen. However, thats not ALL you lose. You also lose the top tier of spell effects. Thats %conceal off your EV, HPs off your Premonition/Energybuffer. Shorter durations on your other buffs. Less pts of damage on your damage spells, lower DC on your greater ruin etc. Now, I prefer to have maximum effectiveness out of my spells, but thats me. If you want to have more disc, another feat etc...go for it. As to skillpoints being wasted...I don't agree. Plenty of skills work just fine if you max them to 31 at the crossclass cost. Like, appraise. You can get fine prices with a 111 appraise score. (31 skill, 50 gear, and...oh, 30 int or so). Plus a 31 spot plus your wisdom is enough to help against the annoying pickpocketers in low level areas you might have to walk through from time to time. The only reason to splash for maxing certain skills is if you want to take the place of a specialist in the endgame. Like if you want to be able to do anything a rogue can do in case your party hasn't got one. And since that means the most in Cania and Nessus, when people CAN NOT port in a rogue for locks and traps and searches...then you can add something to the party. Other than that, why bother? In a well rounded party, the specialist can do it better and its their job anyway - let them do their job, and you do yours. |
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Post by chirikov on Aug 10, 2008 17:19:30 GMT
However, if Dispater is hitting you as a wizard, then something has already gone horribly wrong. Point being that you can, with careful play and skill, AVOID checks easily enough that it isn't (in my opinion) worth sacrificing casting ability in order to withstand something aimed at the meleers. and if something does go horribly wrong, you should at least be prepared to handle it im not saying that you have to have a discipline dump at 40, but that it is highly recommended in general. careful play does help immensely, but you cannot control all the variables |
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Aug 11, 2008 21:07:36 GMT
No, you can't. Even if you're prepared to handle one thing, another can always bite you. Like the dispater slag example - Sure, 100 disc saves your shield from being slagged...but, then, you can always be critted or petrified. Plus losing your shield as a caster stinks, but its not the end of the world.
No class is capable of withstanding EVERYTHING, and that is by design. No class should be "perfect".
Which is why I am comfortable with an 88ish disc. Its good enough to cope with the cinderscales, generally, which land on your head. Worrying about Dispater's melee is not my job as a caster. I'd rather rely on tanks, or GS if he's heading after me, or use a wall, or bbod distractions, or other tricks...than sacrifice some Spell Pen, or feats, for better discipline. Because Spell Pen matters on every single spell I cast. I want that as good as possible, all the time, in all zones.
Because if the white puff of smoke means I'm not doing my job. And I prefer maximum offensive effectiveness to splashing and sacrificing some of that.
And more than 5xDemi wins on my wizzy says that such a build is perfectly viable and effective. Yes, its not the only way - but it works.
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Post by chirikov on Aug 11, 2008 21:31:36 GMT
the difference between being slagged or critted/petrified/killed is that with a quick rez or whatever from a party member, youre good to go. slagging means loss of gear, which may not be so easy to replace
its a matter of perspective. you could probably replace anything slagged easily, perhaps even mid-run (i know some people carry full sets of tia gear as limbo backups, i certainly cant afford to do that). others are stuck until the end of the run when they can fork over the 100mil to unslag it. until then, theyre operating at reduced efficiency (unless you want to debate the efficiency of pure vs splash builds)
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Aug 11, 2008 21:58:23 GMT
Well, the thing about wizards, is that you can only slag shields. Caster shields are not necessary to life like a tank's armor or such.
Plus there are plenty of different caster shields out there.
And if you are so truly attached to your shield that you can't possibly pay 100 mil to unslag it...use a torch in the Dis room, and in Phleg.
In fact, being killed is WORSE, especially in deeper levels, because you lose shunt/bardsong/uef/energy immune/ etc. There are times when its far better to live and keep the buffs and lose the shield, and just equip another one...than it is to die and miss a tag, or lose the buffs and come back blind with no immunitys.
Either way, I just don't see 10-20 pts of discipline as ultra critical for a wizard. I think spell pen is FAR more important, especially with the loss of cursesong as a SR-dropper. 67 isn't a lot vs the high 80s and low 90s of the nasty hell monsters, and worse for their paragons.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2008 22:18:35 GMT
I splashed monk & ranger when I reincarnated my pure level 60 wizard about two weeks before the bard curse song changes. What a huge mistake!
That toon is retired until the reincarnation cool down timer does its thing.
Why do I hate the splash?
Spell penetration sucks - noticeably worse even in the desert (66 uggh what was I thinking)! Why does this matter? You don't have access to AoE debuffs like a cleric and as a wizard one of your tasks is long range crowd control - you need to break SP and get stuff immobilized or dead before the front line gets there and starts debuffing.
Ethereal visage isn't as good - 80% is perceptibly more squishy than 85% even with the addition of a shield which I didn't have before
Premonition worse - see above on squishiness
I added shield and tumble AC with the splash and saw a deterioration in defense as well as a loss of offense. Toss in the bard song change and I has irrevocably broken a nice toon.
Shield is a luxury. Stay pure and leave the splashies taking a dirt nap with their beloved shields while you scoff from the luxurious embrace of totally uber ethereal visage and premontion.
-silver
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Post by jonuhey on Aug 12, 2008 0:46:33 GMT
I just reincarnated him a few hours before those new comments ><
I splashed the ranger lv. im gonna try it now, as I dont know how to play a wiz in the hells yet, I guess 90 days will be kinda good to test it, and if this really doesnt work, Im gonna post it here, even if this thread is dead (dont tell me "I told u so!!" pls lol)
He now is named Johnny Mahoutsukai {Brotherhood}, Im a BH member now =D
Hope it goes well, and thx for all those comments, though I dont have forces to redo the reinc again >< it was a pain learning all those spells =X and I already used the book to get my epic spells, so no coming back now =P
cyall around!
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