Defensive Strength Archer (29 AA, 10 Monk, 1 Wiz)

[icevvind]

So, another Dev-Crit AA, eh? ... This one tries to combine the damage output of a Dev-Crit AA with the AC of a flurry AA. You can use the full +16 mighty from DB/Phleg bows, once you hit Double-Demi, you have Dev-Crit as well for even more damage, and your AC will be acceptable once you hit at least Demi.
You will need to get conceal from others though, as there's no way to fit in the Self-Conceal feats.

Base Race: Elf
Subrace: Erinyes
- FCs: Base Race, Ranger
- DEX +6, CON +2, WIS +4, CHA -2, free feat: Point Blank Shot, free feat: Rapid Shot, free feat: Weapon Focus Longbow, free feat: Epic Weapon Focus Longbow, able to walk on quicksand, speaks Infernal

Stats: Creation | Subrace | Lvl 60, with +12 from items| Double-Demi
STR: 14 | 14 | 38 | 42
DEX: 16 | 22 | 52 | 56
CON: 12 | 14 | 26 | 30
INT: 14 | 14 | 28 | 32
WIS: 14 | 18 | 30 | 34
CHA: 8 | 6 | 18 | 22

Level order: 8 Monk, 1 Wiz, 10 AA, 1 Monk, 19 AA, 1 Monk
Put all pre-LL stat increases into STR (10 points), all LL stat increases into DEX (10 points).

* = AA bonus-feat

Pre-epic feats:
1: Strong Soul
3: Toughness
6: Blind Fight
9: Power Attack
12: Improved Critical (Longbow)
15: Great Cleave
18: Free Feat, whatever you find useful

Epic feats:
21: Armor Skin
24: Great Str 1, Great Dex 1*
27: Great Str 2
28: Overwhelming Crit*
30: Great Dex 2
32: Great Dex 3*
33: Epic Prowess
36: Devastating Crit, Great Dex 4*
39: ESF Listen

Legendary feats: (Take them in whatever order you want.)
42: Legendary Weapon Focus
45: LSF Listen, or whatever else you find more useful
48: Legendary Hardened Soul
51: Great Dex 5
54: Great Dex 6
57: Great Dex 7
60: Great Dex 8

Artifact: Eye of Vecna (INT) for immunity against Confusion.
If you want +1 AC and AB, take the DEX-Arti instead.

AB, fully buffed, at 60 | Double-Demi:
98 | 100

AC at 60: URs | BURs | Double-Demi and Asmo Artifact:
124 | 127 | 134

Saves at 60 | Double-Demi:
Fort: 62 | 64
Reflex: 69 | 71
Will: 62 | 64

HP at 60 | Double-Demi:
896 | 976

Skills:
Discipline: 43
Parry: 43
Tumble: 43 + 17 (Elven able learner ability)
Craft Armor: 63
Listen: 63
Hide: 63

Max Discipline, Parry and Tumble at Monk levels and put the remaining points into Hide, Listen and Craft Armor. In LLs put 51 more points into Tumble (17 ranks, until level 57) and max Hide, Listen and Craft Armor. You will have 7 spare skill-points at 60. (Asuming that you take the Int Arti at lvl 60, or another Arti. Else you'd have up to 12 free skill points left over. (You could put those 12 points into 4 ranks of parry for example. (Able learner, 3 points/rank in this case.))


I don't know, how this build will do during leveling, as I plan to re-incarnate my current Flurry-AA into this one as soon as she gets Double-Demi. But i guess that it will be similar to non-monk AAs, maybe a bit less squishy.




Sooo... tell me what you think, what could be done better, and so on.

Update:
-2 STR at creation for +2 to DEX and INT, taking Great Str 1+2 at levels 24 and 27 instead and maxing Craft Armor with the extra skill points. The final STR and DEX are unchanged, but AC increases by +1/2 (if gear/buffs bring CA over 80).
Update2: Added a short suggestion on parry for the 7 (12 with Int-Arti, used at level 55) left over skill points.
Update3: Removed the AC for Strongheart and Strongheart + Bur Shield (Melee), as you can't wear Strongheart with this build anymore and meleeing with a shield doesn't give you much AC but just lowers your damage output a lot. Also changed the (Weapon Finesse or whatever) to just whatever for the same reason.

[Yomi]

I like both the look of this build on paper and also how I've seen it perform on the run or two we've done together. I'm tempted to reincarnate my Flurry AA into something like this after she does Nessus next. The offensive gains look pretty attractive.

Missing the Self-Conceal feats will make it a lot harder while leveling up and in LL's compared to a regular Flurry especially if you have poor gear, but LL's might be OK since there are a lot more casters with displacement and mass Camo now (and who understand the concept of applying them to party members). Besides, your AC is pretty good.

I think for that 2nd legendary feat you'd want ESF Listen, not LSF Listen. ESF is +10 to the skill but doesn't count toward any caps. LSF is +20 but counts toward the +50 cap. Bardsong should give you +20, and many bards, clerics, and some wizards can give you up to +25 with C/C. There's not much equipment out there, but even without it the ESF is probably more valuable.


It's interesting comparing this to another of the proven str builds: Storm's Devastating Archer. I'm going to take the various stats at 60, saves, AB, AC, etc. as given in the builds, assuming you both calculated them correctly.

Given your 10 monk levels and 34 final double-demi wisdom, you end up with an extra 14 AC. Furthermore you took Craft Armor vs. his Craft Weapon, so there is another 1-2 AC. It's not quite as high as a regular flurry can go, but certainly high enough.

The AB on both builds looks great. 104 on Storm's, 98 on this. Both more than adequate for shooting things with rapid shot. Storm's 100 AB is unbuffed, so he'll gain another 4 or 5 from bard song.

Saves on both look good.

The skill point calculations are messy. Both have able learner (which changed not long ago), and you have a monk level which lets you snag 43 points in Discipline and Tumble for cheap. You've got 2 lower INT than his Koly, but pick up Listen, Discipline, Tumble, Craft Armor, Hide, and Parry. He gets Listen, Discipline, Tumble, Craft Weapon, and UMD. With your wizard level you don't need UMD, and the Hide / Parry sound great for defense.

Storm chose Blinding Speed + Speed Artifact. 10 monk levels should be a decent amount faster than Blinding speed (4*1.3 vs. 4+0.5), up to you on artifact.

Damage: same strength, both have dev crit. He does get Weapon Specialization for a bonus 2 damage on every hit (unfortunately no epic weapon spec for 4 more). With 5-6 higher AB he may hit or crit more often, but I suspect you are high enough vs. their AC's anyway that it will rarely matter.

[icevvind]

First of all, thanks for your comment and the interesting comparison.

Jul 10, 2008 19:17:16 GMT Yomi said:

Missing the Self-Conceal feats will make it a lot harder while leveling up and in LL's compared to a regular Flurry especially if you have poor gear, but LL's might be OK since there are a lot more casters with displacement and mass Camo now (and who understand the concept of applying them to party members). Besides, your AC is pretty good.

Yeah, no Self-Conceal makes things harder, but a standard Flurry wouldn't have SC 5 before level 54 anyway (or 51, if the last monk level was at 39 instead of 40). Besides, at level 50, if you have the Rona breach boots, you can have 4x5 minutes of 50% Discplacement per rest, which eases things up a bit, if no caster with conceal buffs is available.
And yeah, I know how low AC feels like on an AA, as my first AA (a wraith Flurry without LSA Tumble, as that didn't exist yet) that I've taken to hells only had 121 AC in UR gear. He was my first char in hells at all actually and made it succesfully to Cania. So it's possible, even with quite poor gear, though it might be quite rough sometimes...

I think for that 2nd legendary feat you'd want ESF Listen, not LSF Listen. [...]

ESF Listen is taken at level 39. But as I have no +Listen gear in my setup, I decided for LSF Listen as well. With double-demi penalties, bard's song is enough for me to be in the high 110+ Listen range in Tia to Phleg.
If someone has gear with extra +Listen, then LSF Listen might be replaced by something else.

The skill point calculations are messy. Both have able learner (which changed not long ago), [...]

Yes, a bit messy, but things worked out as intended. So I think, that I calculated it correctly.

Storm chose Blinding Speed + Speed Artifact. 10 monk levels should be a decent amount faster than Blinding speed (4*1.3 vs. 4+0.5), up to you on artifact.

Speed is the same as for a normal Flurry AA, so quite nice. I used the Int-Arti, as I don't like to get confused and it's relatively easy to get.
Though, if someone wants more AC, he could take the Dex or Wis-Arti.

[...] With 5-6 higher AB he may hit or crit more often, but I suspect you are high enough vs. their AC's anyway that it will rarely matter.

Yep, hitting stuff is not really a problem, especially since listen helps with that too. And I'm using rapid shot almost all the time. I think, swapping the bows fast enough while changing targets is more of a "problem".

Last, a comparison with the build I've reincarnated this from, which was an almost standard Flurry, just with a few changes like LSA Tumble, LL Fort and Will instead of the Epic ones, and the 10th monk level taken at 39, to get 1 SC feat pre-LL.
(I'm assuming Double-Demi bonusses for both, though the old one only had them for 1-2 hours, bevor the reincarnation thingy got her. ;D).

Compared to my old one, this one has:
-3 AB
-8 AC (-7 Dex AC, -1 Wis AC)
-60 HP
-4 Fort, -7 Reflex, -4 Will saves
-Own self-conceal
+18 STR (+9 modificator)
+Dev-Crit
+Listen, the old one had no listen at all!

[Tom Schreib]

The more I look at this build and now that I have seen you play it I must say I really likr it. Max damage, and great Defence. I am looking at some AAs with a new light. Nice job on this build.

[atomicsomething]

Jul 10, 2008 19:17:16 GMT Yomi said:

With 5-6 higher AB he may hit or crit more often, but I suspect you are high enough vs. their AC's anyway that it will rarely matter.

With a similar build (99AB), my percentages of missed hits (without counting 1s) and missed crits (due to too low crit roll) are < 2% in Phleg. Only for aspirants, i get a noticeable higher % of miss (5% not counting 1s).

For the leveling part, AC is high enough in LL (though i took more Great Dex as Epic feats, and used LL stat increase to boost STR, so my AC was nearly maxxed at 40 except for tumble). As non-demi in hells, i 'm not having much troubles as long as i stay in the back, but i can still hold my own if a couple of critters find a sudden interest in me.

[Yomi]

Jul 10, 2008 20:43:51 GMT icevvind said:

Yeah, no Self-Conceal makes things harder, but a standard Flurry wouldn't have SC 5 before level 54 anyway (or 51, if the last monk level was at 39 instead of 40).

Ah yes, the tumble will prevent you from taking SC before that last monk level. It does help, but it really starts kicking in later, as you point out.

Besides, at level 50, if you have the Rona breach boots, you can have 4x5 minutes of 50% Discplacement per rest, which eases things up a bit, if no caster with conceal buffs is available.

Those boots are fantastic gear indeed.

And yeah, I know how low AC feels like on an AA, as my first AA (a wraith Flurry without LSA Tumble, as that didn't exist yet) that I've taken to hells only had 121 AC in UR gear. He was my first char in hells at all actually and made it succesfully to Cania. So it's possible, even with quite poor gear, though it might be quite rough sometimes...

I was thinking of my first AA who did Drow with an 85 or so AC. Or my second who had to tank DB with 110 AC and before her self conceal feats (no grabs -- would have been easy with them). I don't remember the AC I did my first Hells trips with mine, but it was no BURs so somewhere in the 120s. None of my Flurry builds took LSA Tumble; post-demi I haven't missed it since it hits 139 plus SC5 with buffs.

ESF Listen is taken at level 39. But as I have no +Listen gear in my setup, I decided for LSF Listen as well. With double-demi penalties, bard's song is enough for me to be in the high 110+ Listen range in Tia to Phleg.
If someone has gear with extra +Listen, then LSF Listen might be replaced by something else.

Doh, didn't see that. I took ESF+LSF Listen on my DD/RDD since there is so little +Listen gear (though that was before C/C worked). It's not a bad choice, IMO, and nothing obvious is coming to mind to replace it. ESF Discipline except I think long term it's not needed (I'm thinking of the LL Discipline checks).

[Skills...] Yes, a bit messy, but things worked out as intended. So I think, that I calculated it correctly.

Calculating skills with Able Learner on my Wiz/AA made my head hurt. No helping hand from the CBC spreadsheet on that either.

I used the Int-Arti, as I don't like to get confused and it's relatively easy to get.
Though, if someone wants more AC, he could take the Dex or Wis-Arti.

Seems reasonable to me. I never did use an artifact on mine, partly because I'm cheap and indecisive, and partly because nothing really stood out as something it needed (other than more damage sometimes .

Last, a comparison with the build I've reincarnated this from, which was an almost standard Flurry, just with a few changes like LSA Tumble, LL Fort and Will instead of the Epic ones, and the 10th monk level taken at 39, to get 1 SC feat pre-LL.
(I'm assuming Double-Demi bonusses for both, though the old one only had them for 1-2 hours, bevor the reincarnation thingy got her. ;D).

Compared to my old one, this one has:
-3 AB
-8 AC (-7 Dex AC, -1 Wis AC)
-60 HP
-4 Fort, -7 Reflex, -4 Will saves
-Own self-conceal
+18 STR (+9 modificator)
+Dev-Crit
+Listen, the old one had no listen at all!

Looks pretty similar to mine except I maxed Listen and took ESF Discipline. No LSA Tumble or Able Learner benefits on mine (she's from last September, haven't reincarnated with new system).

[dragonlance007]

I am looking to reinc my flurry aa into something like this but want to take advantage of the new aa updates. So how would you go about fitting in 30 levels of AA? My main concern is with the skills... seems you would have to take a nasty hit on saves to be able to max either disc or tumble... I guess take Blooded and lsa tumble then throw as many points into disc cross class in LLs that you can?

~DL

[icevvind]

I'm thinking about 30 AA levels, though not sure yet on what to do exactly. Will crunch some numbers and see, if i can get acceptable results. I will post it in here, if i get something interesting.
Besides that, this version does really nice allready, though 17-20 instead of 18-20 crit-range and +1d10 damage on bows would be sweet.

[icevvind]

Ok, thought about some versions with 30 AA levels. I won't post them as full builds, just listing the differences to the original build.

Level order for all versions: 8 Monk, 1 Wiz, 10 AA, 1 Monk, 20 AA
Starting stats are unchanged and you also gain another AA bonus feat at level 40 this way.

Some first thoughts about skills:
Tumble, Listen and Hide are the main priorities, Discipline secondary.
Other nice skills to have would be Concentration, Craft Armor and / or Parry.

Listen, Hide and Craft Armor are class skills for AAs.
Discipline, Parry and Tumble aren't class skills for AAs, so you can only get 23 ranks in any of them, if you don't take them cross-class, or per LSA feat.

I would definitely put as much points as possible into Hide, Listen and Tumble, while Discipline should get enough points as well. If you like to take the char to Elysium, Concentration should get some points too, or the Thrushes might be problematic. (Or you just have to stay away from them.)
Dropping Parry completely makes crits from enemies more painful, dropping Craft Armor lowers your AC by 1/2 more points.

If you take 23 Tumble, 23 Discipline, 63 Hide and 63 Listen, you will have 204 skill points left. (209 if you take the Int-Arti at level 55)
In the different versions, I will assume this "base skill selection" and just list the remaining points after maxing Tumble. The final skill distribution is in your hands.


Basic differences to the original build in all versions:
-1 AC
+1d10 damage on DB- and Phleg-Bows
17-20/x4 criticals instead of 18-20/x4
In the differences to the original build, I won't list skill specific differences, as well as these base changes, as they are posted above already. All version-specific differences are on top of these base ones!



Version 1:
Feats: Take Dev Crit or Epic Prowess as one of the AA bonus feats, so you get a general free feat instead. Take an Epic Skill Focus for example, maybe Discipline.

Skills:
Maxing Tumble cross-class with the elven able learner ability (8 ranks for 2 points each (total Tumble = 31), 29 ranks for 3 points each (total Tumble = 60)) leaves you with 101 points left to spend.

Differences:
Far too few skill points.



Version 2:
Feats:
Take Blooded and LSA Tumble instead of Strong Soul and Legendary Hardened Soul.
Take Dev Crit as one of the AA bonus feats and replace LSF Listen (a), Armor Skin (b) or Epic Prowess (c) with Epic Will and Epic Fort.

Skills:
Maxing Tumble with LSA Tumble leaves you with 167 points to spend.

Differences:
-2 to Fort and Will saves
(a) harder to keep Listen maxed, wouldn't recommend it, unless you have lots of +Listen gear
(b) -2 AC
(c) -2 AB

Version 3:
Feats:
Take Blooded and LSA Tumble instead of Strong Soul and Legendary Hardened Soul.
Take Dev Crit as one of the AA bonus feats. Replace Weapon Finesse (level 18) with Iron Will or Great Fort and take the other one on your free epic feat. Also replace 2 Great Dex feats in LLs with LL Will and LL Fort.

Skills:
Maxing Tumble with LSA Tumble leaves you with 167 points to spend.

Differences:
+3 Fort and Will saves
-1 AC
-1 AB






I'm not sure which one I'd take. And it really depends on what you want exactly anyway.

[bort]

Having seen similar builds perform very well, I've been looking at reincarnating my AA into a Defensive Dev Crit archer: Here's my thoughts on how to do it with Undying (the best thing i have available atm).

Thoughts please

- All elves can raise any cross-class skill to 31 (the normal level 60 limit) starting at level 41 for the normal 2 points per rank.
- For skills which are cross-class for their control class but which are class skills for one of their other classes, elves may raise them to the normal class skill limit for 3 points per rank above 31 in legendary levels. These skill ranks may not be taken on the same level as ordinary 2-point cross-class skill ranks; a skill must first be increased to 31 before it can be raised past 31 on a later level.

"Undying" (secret Beyond UltraRare)
- Never Gets XP Penalty
- STR +2, DEX +2, CON +4, INT +2, WIS +2, CHA +2, free feat: Dodge, free feat: Luck of Heroes, free feat: Great Fortitude, free feat: Iron Will, free feat: Lightning Reflexes
- Undying receive +3 skill points per legendary level.
(+60 skill points)

Elven ability adjustments: +2 Dex, -2 Con

Stats: Creation | Subrace | 60 geared | double demi
STR: 14 | 16 | 38 | 42
DEX: 16 | 18 | 48 | 52
CON: 12 | 16 | 28 | 32
INT: 14 | 16
WIS: 14 | 16 | 28 | 32
CHA: 8 | 10

Put all pre-LL stat increases into STR (10 points), all LL stat increases into DEX (10 points).

Skill points:
24 : 4 * 4+2(6) level 1 monk
56 : 8 * 4+3(7) monk levels
5 : 1 * 2+3(5) wiz level
350 : 50 * 4+3(7) aa level
60 : undying extras
=495
-5 class skills = 183 (63 listen hide craft weapon craft armor & 60 tumble - after lsa tumble)
-23 * 2 (46) monk class skills (concentration and discipline level 20 dump) = 137
-(10 * 2) * 2 raising those two skills to 31 = 97
leaves you enough skill points to dump 16 more into concentration and discipline (at a cost of 3 points per point) giving you 47 final discipline and concentration.

Skills: (* on monk and legendary levels):
47 concentration* - max this and discipline last
47 discipline* - max this and concentration last
63 listen
63 hide
60 tumble* - monk levels and after LSA tumble
63 craft weapon
63 craft armor

Progression:
8 Monk / 1Wiz / 10 aa / 1 monk / 20 aa

Feats:
1 Blooded
3 Weapon Focus Longbow
6 Point Blank Shot
9 Rapid Shot
12 Power Attack
15 Improved Crit Longbow
18 Great Cleave

21 Armor Skin
24 Great Dex 1
24 bonus Great Dex 2
27 Great Dex 3
28 bonus Great Dex 4
30 Great Dex 5
32 bonus Great Dex 6
33 Great Dex 7
36 Great Dex 8
36 bonus Great Dex 9
39 Great Dex 10
40 bonus Epic Weapon Focus

42 LSA Tumble
45 Legendary Weapon Focus Longbow
48 Epic Prowess
51 Overwhelming Critical
54 Devastating Critical
57 LSF Listen
60 ESF Listen

AB:
99 (with song and the resulting craft weapon boost)
101 double demi
102 dex arti (assuming you choose it)

Saves:
9 monk 1 wiz 10 aa
monk: +6 fort reflex will
wiz: +2 will
aa: +7 fort reflex, +3 will
= 13 fort reflex, 11 will
con dex wis = 28 48 28 (+9 fort 19 reflex 9 will)
= 22 32 20
+ 3 fort reflex will (great fort, lightning reflexes, iron will, luck of heroes)
= 25 35 23
+10 epic levels
= 35 45 33
+20 items/song
= 55 65 53
+5 LLs
= 60 Fort 70 Reflex 58 Will
Will is a bit low, but i'll probably go with INT arti to cover confusion and there's not much else i'm worried about.
I'm using Dim Mak robes too, so Epic Will would increase Will to 62

AC:
10 base
19 dex mod
9 wis mod
15 armor (bur robes)
20 dodge ac
17 deflection (bur)
17 natural (bur)
12 tumble
2 armor skin
2 craft armor
1 monk ac

120 URs
123 BURs
125 Girding
132 double demi and asmo arti

61-66% conceal from friendly ranger's mass camo

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

I've managed to come up with a seriously solid Zenythri version, with the help of Kobra.

134ac with burs, doubledemi and an asmo arti.

99 AB unbuffed, so about 103 with bardsong,

Stats top at with double demi:
Str 42
Dex 58
Con 28
Int 30
Wis 34
Cha 24

Saves are:
57 (60)
72 (75)
62 (65)
(I used the saves arti to get that fort up to 60.)

And HPs in gear are 916 at DD.

122 listen in gear, which isn't maxed...so 127+ with bardsong.

CA/CW are 63 with stats included, but no gear bonuses. With gear, or bardsong, or both, could make the +2 for ac/ab. I could've gone higher in one than the other, but I chose to up them together (yes, I'm anal and symmetrically inclined...cope)

So if I hit that +2 somehow, the ab/ac listed above go up to 104/35 (37 girding)

Disc is the basic 40 before stats or gear.
Concentration is 40 in stat gear, but without other gear bonuses.

Tumble maxed with LSA Tumble

And with 30 AA, I get max damage and 17-20x4 crits. OUCH.

Only downsides:
1) With 30 aa, no level 40 disc/conc/parry dumps. So those skills are lower than I'd like, even with able learner. Just not enough skillpoints to go into all of them, even with lsa tumble and listen in-class.

2) No "extra" feats. I couldn't take ESkF Disc, nor Weapon Finesse (Zeny have free unarmed feats, was considering unarmed melee as a backup to the bow). I also don't recall if I could fit toughness or not. I think I did, but I don't recall.

3) No self conceal. And no hide. So its basic mass camo/druid epic.

[bort]

Looks nice, presumably Half-Kyton would work equally well?

[Eethen]

Is it a good idea to go 30 AA? This gives you a 17-20 crit range. You could drop strong soul for blooded, weapon finess for great for and thoughness for iron will.

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

Aug 1, 2008 18:48:52 GMT bort said:

Looks nice, presumably Half-Kyton would work equally well?

Well my original AA was HK. I switched from HK to Zeny because I wanted +4 strength at character gen, to help with getting dev crit and its 25-str prereq.

HK is Dex/Con/Wis, Zeny is Str/Dex/Wis.

If you went HK, you'd need to find a way to make up for that 4 str. So I don't think it'd work *equally* well, no.

[Rodon_]

Any chance you could post the feats taken with that build, Delf?