Blackhearted Turner of Men's Hearts 17Cl/1Mo/22BG

[Ford Prefect]

UPDATE: This Alternate build is what I'm running now. Both builds work, but depend on playstyle: highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=builds&thread=12774



(full gear, single demi)

This is a Blackguard turner. Not a cleric turner with a splash of blackguard as we've been seeing lately, but a true, vile, wicked, corrupt your soul BG Turner. It held it's own VERY nicely in hell and is 1x demi now. Dis, Min, and Malb were this toon's playground. Malad I took 3rd with 56 kills, 21 pops in Cania, and 54 in Nessus. It's an odd but effective build, if you are up to learning some new turning habits. (See notes below for a ramble on the history and playstyle for this build)

Race: Half Celestial or Rilamani
ST 8
DX 8
IN 10
CO 10
WI 16
CH 18


lvl 1-16 cleric
1 Blooded, extra turning, Evil Domain, Earth Domain
3 Combat Casting
4 WIS+1
6 Extend Spell
8 WIS+1
9 Emp Spell
12 WIS+1, Toughness
15 Quicken Spell
16 CHR+1
17 (MONK LEVEL), Disc+10, Tumble+2-, Hide+5
18 (CLERIC LEVEL), Blind Fight
19-40, Blackguard levels
20 CHR+1
21 Great CHR 1
24 CHR+1, Great CHR 2
27 Great CHR 3
28 CHR+1
30 Great CHR 4
31 Planar Turning
33 Great CHR 5
34 Armor Skin
36 CHR+1, Great CHR 6
37 Epic Toughness 1
39 Imp Combat CAsting
40 CHR+1
42 CHR+1, Great CHR 7
44 CHR+1
45 Great CHR 8
46 CHR+1
48 CHR+1, Great CHR 9
50 CHR+1
51 Great CHR 10
56 CHR+1
57 Plant Domain
58 CHR+1
60 WIS+1, Sun Domain

The gear I Demi'ed him in:
Armor Arakin's casement www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Arakin%27s_Casement
helm crown of radiance www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Crown_of_Radiance
cloak loki's torment www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Loki%27s_Torment
shield set's guard www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Set%27s_Guard
boots steadfast slippers www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Steadfast_Slippers
belt divinity's beckons www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Divinity%27s_Beckons
ammy heavenly haunt's necklace www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Heavenly_Haunt%27s_Necklace
gloves manacles of mephistopheles www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manacles_of_Mephistopheles
weapon mastigo (for cleric spell slots)
ring gift of undeath (for crit immunity)

NOTES: The sole inspiration for this toon came from the Builds list on HGWiki. I was looking through one day and noticed that no one had posted a proven (blue) blackguard build. Two people had posted unproven builds, but they didn't look active. So I rolled this guy on paper about a year ago, took 6 months to score Half Celestial, built him 8 or 9 times in the test chamber, ran the build by my guild, and came out with this. There are a couple things I'll tweak on reincarnation, as the test chamber doesn't let you test your legendary level setup.

WHATWEREYOUTHINKING? There, I asked the obvious question for you. I've been playing turners on HG for a while, and I've still got plenty to learn, but one thing I've noticed is that every pure cleric turner I've seen (including my own) usually runs out of turns long before they run out of spells. Most turners stop putting points into WIS after 25, and so you're generally not much of a caster once you're out of turns. Why not convert that wasted spell capability into something more useful. 17 levels of cleric gets you level 9 cleric spells (gate) with each casting of your buffs lasting 17 rounds (17*6 = 102 sec) So you're buffed for a minute and a half... that's about the time it takes the party to clear a spawn. with around a dozen spells per slot, you can put up a fresh gate and battletide before each spawn and rest with the casters. It works if you are open to a twist on the usual turner playstyle. This toon hasn't been dragged on a single post-immo run and has been a lot of fun to play and done pretty well for herself.

Be prepared for a *lot* of "WTF" sorts of comments. It helps to advertise yourself as a "non-cleric turner" so people don't automatically expect you to have IoF and miracle and such.

I'm still actively playing this toon, and will be working my way back down through hells to get double-demi, so if you want to see her in action, just holler.

[bort]

Cheers for posting. I have some questions
How does this compare to a cleric turner?
i.e. What does this have that a cleric turner doesn't?
Can't you get crit immunity from BG death ward or does that require more BG levels?
I don't see smiting feats, do you just spam turns then rest? How many do you get per rest?
Thanks,
-Bort

[gren]

Interesting build, I love Blackguards.

It will get Death Ward (should get 3 of them) as my Bane Knight has 22 BG levels and does.

One advantage this will have is getting 4 more CHA (and STR) points in legendary levels because of being CC Blackguard. On top of Great CHA X this gives a high score!

Not sure if this gets back anything like what would be gained by pure cleric bonus feats, as stated by the OP - no epic spells and without the feats, spells would be less effective. Assume the Spell Pen book would be used to target machines?

Sounds like it could be an awesome Turner.......but does little else? Not a criticism by the way.

Not got HC myself but have got Rilmani, may just try it out......

[maljin]

You'll get death ward (the spell) but no crit immunity unless you have 40 base str.

I guess you trade epic spells and better spell casting for the +4 str/cha in LLs due to cc blackguard. Can't see any other benefits atm (unless you count the unique class combination) but it looks interesting.

[the1kobra]

A few comments on the build...
Improved combat casting doesn't apply to turning, and I can't imagine you casting very many spells with only 17 cleric levels, you could drop improved combat casting at level 39, take a great charisma instead, and then replace one of the LL great-charisma's with a domain, for more turning flexibility, I would recommend destruction.
I don't see extra smiting there either, believe me, for paladin and blackguard turners, having those 2 extra full TL turns is quite nice to have. You can take blind fight at level 3 and take extra smiting at 18.
Also, if you went with 9/1/10 cleric/monk/blackguard pre epic instead of 17/1/2, you would get a BAB of 16 instead of 14, I don't think it really matters considering I don't think this is a melee character anyways, but still, you don't really lose anything for it that I see.

[Chaos]

This gave me a good idea for a build, have to say thanks Gonna go test out some ideas I have now hehe

[Ford Prefect]

Nov 22, 2008 9:55:43 GMT bort said:

Cheers for posting. I have some questions
How does this compare to a cleric turner?

It plays differently. (one of the things that I like about it.) You do get crazy saves without even trying 60s-80s, so that's one nice thing. I don't have Styxwalkers, but I don't have to freak out if Neverwinter's incredibly "creative" pathing walks me through the water in Malad. It seems that most turners out there are played as buff bots and crowd control. I prefer to go for the jugular when turning and get my kill-count as high as possible. I don't want to just stun the mob, I want to take a couple of 'em out. The 2 level penalty applied to my TP for not being pure cleric doesn't impact my playstyle as I still manage to stun everything first time around. The nice legendary BG cha bonus helps the destruction DC so it works out well for the kill-count.

Nov 22, 2008 9:55:43 GMT bort said:

I don't see smiting feats, do you just spam turns then rest? How many do you get per rest?

I generally rest with the casters as I have 37 turns per day. I didn't go with smite feats this time around. I might next time... maybe not...

Nov 22, 2008 13:21:44 GMT gren said:

Not sure if this gets back anything like what would be gained by pure cleric bonus feats, as stated by the OP - no epic spells and without the feats, spells would be less effective. Assume the Spell Pen book would be used to target machines?

You could, but I went with the Div book to help out gate.

Nov 22, 2008 13:21:44 GMT gren said:

Sounds like it could be an awesome Turner.......but does little else? Not a criticism by the way.

Nope, you're spot on. It's a wonderfully fun turner to play, amazing saves, every bit as rugged as a pure cleric turner (without depending as much on buffs as a cleric would be) but it's strictly a turner. If you want, you could call it a turner-destroyer, as it does do very nicely at popping mobs, which is what I was shooting for.

Nov 22, 2008 15:04:06 GMT the1kobra said:

A few comments on the build...
Improved combat casting doesn't apply to turning, and I can't imagine you casting very many spells with only 17 cleric levels, you could drop improved combat casting at level 39, take a great charisma instead, and then replace one of the LL great-charisma's with a domain, for more turning flexibility, I would recommend destruction.

I agree. That's one of the things that I'll be changing when I reinc. I originally took CC and ImpCC because on my other turners I cast battletide, run into the mob, turn, PRAY, turn, turn, turn. that pray is where it's nice to have combat casting. But honestly, having played this guy around the block a bit, I'd be pretty comfortable without it as you can minimize how much you get beat on during that prayer by being strategic with where you are standing with respect to the non-turnable stuff.

Nov 22, 2008 15:04:06 GMT the1kobra said:

I don't see extra smiting there either, believe me, for paladin and blackguard turners, having those 2 extra full TL turns is quite nice to have. You can take blind fight at level 3 and take extra smiting at 18.

I passed on the smite options because it looks to me like you're burning a feat, and only getting 3 smites/day out of it. So I've got 3 turns with 1 extra point towards my turning power, and 1 extra point towards the destruction DC... and 34 turns without that. I didn't think it was worth it on this build, but I have a second one of these cooking up, so I may try it on that one.

Nov 22, 2008 15:04:06 GMT the1kobra said:

Also, if you went with 9/1/10 cleric/monk/blackguard pre epic instead of 17/1/2, you would get a BAB of 16 instead of 14, I don't think it really matters considering I don't think this is a melee character anyways, but still, you don't really lose anything for it that I see.

Hee hee... I like the way you think. My second one of these will have that exact level spread.

[wodgard]

would going with Radiance Genasi. for 70cha with cha atr/or demi x1.. hurt an aready week dc(-3) too much, and illiminate what casting you coulds still pull off? to me seems the better race stats/free feat wise any how..

any how a poke at your experance(not that i have either race but curious)

[Ford Prefect]

Nov 22, 2008 20:27:56 GMT wodgard said:

would going with Radiance Genasi. for 70cha with cha atr/or demi x1.. hurt an aready week dc(-3) too much, and illiminate what casting you coulds still pull off? to me seems the better race stats/free feat wise any how..

Turners have two critical stats that they have to worry about, WIS and CHR. You need a WIS of 25 to get planar turning (very key to turners on HG) but once you hit 25 WIS, you generally want to dump every available point possible into CHR. So you look at the benefits to both races. RadGen gives you a total of +6 to CHR and WIS, where Half Celestial or Rilamani gives you +10 between your WIS and CHR. 4 stat points more. The spell feats you get from Rad Gen would be kinda handy to a cleric turner, but this build is definitely NOT a caster build, and actually, when I reincarnate him next, I'll be dropping a couple of the metamagic feats in favor of feats that would make him more rugged.

If I had to do this with a UR race, I'd probably use Fallen Angel, and don't discard the notion of building toons on BUR races that aren't quite optimal and playing them to learn the toon, figure the gear out, and using that toon to do runs to get the appropriate race book. I have a bard that spend the first 38 levels of his life as a Monk.

[wodgard]

(may not be after all.. looking again feats will open to ya but most preepic.. could be tuff finding your 25cha/wis for planer.. may still be worth looking if things could be moved rouned enough.)

beat me too it it did look good at a glance

figured ya were playing it sorta like bard in with turns sted of songs.. then going with heal circles what ever ya can to help keep the party standing.. ab didnt look enough to mele.but guess ya could with help of divine power. will have to watch for ya in the hell runs

[Ford Prefect]

Nov 22, 2008 23:45:35 GMT wodgard said:

figured ya were playing it sorta like bard in with turns sted of songs.. then going with heal circles what ever ya can to help keep the party standing.. ab didnt look enough to mele.but guess ya could with help of divine power. will have to watch for ya in the hell runs

That is how most folks on HG seem to play their turners. They immobilize everything and then start whacking on it. I take a little different approach - I'm addicted to that whooshing sound that NwN makes when a turner pops something. I'm after the kill count. So I'll use 3 or 4 turns on a single mob, but I'll also insta-gib between 20 and 80% of the mob. (depends on the layer and the mob composition) Makes for faster runs... kind of. Hee hee. You end up killing the mob faster, but you also end up needing to rest more often. It's a trade-off, and if I'm on a run with folks that I haven't partied with much, I'll ask the party if they want aggressive turning or not.

[garney]

Nov 25, 2008 14:37:06 GMT Ford Prefect said:

That is how most folks on HG seem to play their turners. They immobilize everything and then start whacking on it.

I Have NEVER seen a turner start to whack on mobs after they have turned (stunned) em lol. Most i seen do the Turn/prayer/turn/turn/turn routine. And yes they dont just stun but actually kill. (in 7 of the 9 layers of hell a decent turner gets top kills, the 2 ice layers they gotta be dragged tho lol)

[wollstonecraft]

Nov 22, 2008 23:31:15 GMT Ford Prefect said:

Half Celestial or Rilamani gives you +10 between your WIS and CHR. 4 stat points more.

The info on Rilmani in the HG pdf is misprinted. First, the name is misspelled. Second, they get +6 Wis and +4 Con, not +4 Cha.
Using !doc subraces in-game brings up the correct information.
Just thought that should be noted.

-WSCraft

[buddhamind]

May 4, 2009 21:16:43 GMT wollstonecraft said:

Nov 22, 2008 23:31:15 GMT Ford Prefect said:

Half Celestial or Rilamani gives you +10 between your WIS and CHR. 4 stat points more.

The info on Rilmani in the HG pdf is misprinted. First, the name is misspelled. Second, they get +6 Wis and +4 Con, not +4 Cha.
Using !doc subraces in-game brings up the correct information.
Just thought that should be noted.

-WSCraft

I believe they used to get +4 Cha, and was changed to +4 Con. With that in mind you would have to do some creative restructuring of the build to make it work with Rilmani or Rad. Genasi.