Post by dragonlance007 on Aug 29, 2006 15:47:36 GMT
I just want to say that I recently made a character using this build ,and even tho I have 4 immortal characters on this server and another 2 over lvl 34, THIS toon has been the funnest ever in 4 years playing NWN!! Thank you Yue!
I did not have any secret subraces so I did the Derrzagon Dwarf option, but that worked out better for me b/c I had some good rapiers to use with him.
I loved it every step of the way. Thanks again Yue.
Post by cathedralmaster on Aug 29, 2006 23:44:47 GMT
I've played this build up to lvl 57 and it's remarkable. It can survive where almost no one else can (in my first Illithid run with it, me and Mish's two characters where the only ones to avoid fuguing in the tube room).
With just decent equipment, it seems I need to roll a 1 to be hit by the breath of the various dragons and implodes. I'm rarely ever petrified. Living sands never seem to get me. I've done a beholder run and never took a single point of damage from the traps. I still have yet to see what the big deal is with Annihilators. Simply put this build is decently near indestructable against many of the hazards that kill everyone else in most areas.
Even where it is weak, namely in dicipline saves especially against the Furrow's Fleshers, it still does alright. Without armor, it's ac is still 110+ with the equipment I use, which is often better than the str builds have when they have full equipment on. It catches more air time than Jordan when it goes up against Gravitors but nothing is perfect.*
The only suggestion I would make is to move the pickpocket points up to Lvl 34 from their current Lvl 39 as being able to pickpocket the drow during the Xul/Lolth run you will have to do is a big help.
Other than that, this build is brilliant.
ADDED: * - Talked to Yue and he recommended using disc addition items to fix that. Psi Actuator belt + Bracers of the Immortal takes the Discipline to 87 at lvl 57, more than enough to beat the Gravitors 100% of the time and without much of a loss depending on your equipment- just swap the EQ when you get to them.
Alternatively, a more expensive solution is PA Belt + the Bard UR Tunic which also takes it above what you need (82 in that case) with even less of a loss however that particular item is obviously a little harder to come by.
As I stated before I think, a brilliant build. When playing my AA in the level 30's I couldn't stop thinking about how much I'd rather be playing one of my HD builds. The character could have soloed House M faster than our group of 10. It is great in most areas, though not all (and no character should be the best at everything). But in the desert, especially in the 50's you start wondering what's causing everyone else's hp to drop -- couldn't be the 15 archers, could it?
The problems I've had include will saves in illithids -- with mindblank up you're fine, but once down she's really hard to get back up again, as in many rooms the low will save means instant stun followed quickly by death. Trying to juggle mord + sonic + lev ring + spider signet all at the same time can be a challenge, and get it wrong and things go bad pretty fast. It's possible that some special equipment like the Exo Array helm may help if it's unstrippable mind immune. Similarly, until you get your AC pretty high, lost souls will occasionally dominate you.
Overall I'd rather play my bard (thanks again Mish!) in Illithids, as the saves are all great, damage output is similar, almost as hard to hit (about 10 less AC at same level without shield but 80% conceal), self-buffing, quite a bit higher ab, discipline well over 100, able to cast clarity / prot from evil, and has the handy bardsong / cursesong which is nice for the party. For the maze, the halfling death build can do it easily enough, but the bard kills guardians faster. On the other hand, the bard really needs buffing, while the halfling death is fine unbuffed, which is handy sometimes.
Another problem as you pointed out is discipline. As stated, with the right gauntlets your AC will hardly change at all with fleshers, and even without a shield be awfully high. For gravitars, a high level bard can help a lot, but beware of flying when it wears off (or after a rez). You will need more than one piece of equipment to get discipline adequate for gravitars. The base 43 discipline after level 40 does not improve with levels, and you're going to get only 4 points from strength with the unmodified build. So without bardsong and equipment bonuses other than +12 to strength, you're at 47. That's guaranteed flying every single time. I wasn't aware psi belt added to discipline -- your post implies it has +15, so I'll have to look when I'm on. There is a UR shield (that I don't have) that adds 20 discipline, the bard robes and bard helm add, various other equipment also add some. My first build never got enough equipment to get it high enough to manage without bardsong. My second one is wearing enough to be over 80. The other option for gravitars is to get the psi boots which make you immune to the effect (but you need tag to wear).
As Cath pointed out and I realized after my first build, you don't really want to save up all the points for pickpocket until level 39. Spend the 12 points sometime in the low 30's or even earlier so you can pickpocket as soon as you go to drow. Every heal you pickpocket is worth many hundreds of hp -- though be watchful as I seem to go flatfooted while PPing so it's one of the few times anything there can hit me. If you don't have good equipment the heals you snag can be handy for your immo run also.
I think everyone should try the build or something similar once. But it does spoil you.
After getting one of these to level 59, I started another. Different subrace, and decided I'd go for self conceal and kukri instead of handaxe. This isn't easy as every single feat in the build is there for a reason, and switching to kukri cost another. Kukri does crit noticibly more often which is nice, but of course crits for less damage.
To get the 5 self conceal feats, I chose to drop: skill focus search, skill focus disable trap, epic prowess, improved expertise, and epic fortitude. Dropping the focuses hasn't seemed to hurt me yet, though it's possible it will in some new areas (though I think with enough equipment such as UR pads, dungeoncrawler +10, illithid rogue gloves, etc. you can make it up). Dropping epic prowess is a bit of a challenge as I needed to substitute armor skin at level 20 for great dex, then put armor skin in place in level 40. I chose to get all 5 self conceal feats as early as possible, putting off the great dex feats, and I have to say that so far (she's level 51 now), 50% conceal combined with the fantastic AC just makes this even more robust for melee. Personally I hardly ever used expertise much less improved expertise so that wasn't a big deal for me, but if Mish put it in the build, then don't treat it lightly.
Dropping epic fort is probably the most problematic decision. After talking to Mish I may instead drop Great Dex 9 and 10 and get epic fort and something else (perhaps epic prowess, epic will, or slippery mind). Realistically with 50% conceal, the difference between 131 and 132 AC is going to matter very little in most places versus improvements to saves. I've still not found wearable items that would give this build a 143 AC without exploits (e.g. wearing mask of mystra, prescient guard, and stoic faith) and/or a pocket cleric for epic buffs, but I'll keep my eye out for +20 helms.
- Yomi the Long Winded, on behalf of the Halflings Yumii and Liisi.
I've still not found wearable items that would give this build a 143 AC without exploits (e.g. wearing mask of mystra, prescient guard, and stoic faith) and/or a pocket cleric for epic buffs, but I'll keep my eye out for +20 helms.
Not sure what exploits you're thinking of, but I believe all the gear-req evading ones are squashed. If not, please lmk. Funky
Funky, all the equipment exploits I'm aware of got squashed a month ago, which is a good thing. This build using +18 armor bracers is ... words fail me.
Since discipline is important for the build, here is a list of some of the equipment I know with discipline plusses on it. I'll delete or remove some detail (or a moderator can) if this is too much information. Most of these have at least a level 40 requirement which I'll assume. I'm sure there are other items.
+15 UR Helm Scion of Sorcere +10 UR Helm Helm of Heralds +10 UR Helm Machination +10 UR Helm Hood of Arundar +10 rare belt, Xit Ruin +10 (wiz belt) +15 UR belt, Song of the East (druid belt) +10 belt (beholders?), Mithral coil, level 55 +10 rare divine ring Fallon's Helper +10 UR ring Zendarfil's +10 Mask's Mischief belt, immortal and 20 levels of rogue +15 UR bard robes, level 50 +20 Bracers of the Immortal, immortal +20 Psi Actuator belt, needs illithid tag +10 Soul Mirror helm (bard helm), needs illithid tag +10 Rano's Vendetta (rogue gloves), needs illithid tag +20 Psiforger's Boots (gravitar immune), needs illithid tag +10 Cowl of the Keeper (cloak), needs illithid tag +15 UR shield, Orudin's Eye +10 UR tower shield, Shield of Vandalar +25 UR tower shield, Ixityl's Will
Not usable by this build: +20 Prescient's Guard bracers, level 55 & illithid & 30 wiz levels
A lot of the items here are either UR or need illithid tag, which can make one's first time through pretty hectic. Also, thanks for pointing out the immo bracers, which most people going to illithids will have available, and the bracers plus one other item should remove most of the problem.
I went again twice with this character last night and I think it worked well. But she has illithid tag so could wear three of these items (for +40 to discipline, which gives her an 88, so no flying). Saves are also high enough from other equipment that she doesn't need to consider a ring to help (which she did the first trip), and our level 60 druid keeping everyone under shunt made being sloppy with immunities not a penalty .
I also tried out the Exo-array helm, whose text could perhaps be interpreted to say it has special mind immune properties. It does not. Without mindblank but using that helm, I was stunned quickly.
- edit to add a few more helms to list - edit to add more items
I wondered about the Exo-array too it does sound (in the description) like it should protect against mind spells better than standard equipment (and if it doesn't I can't see anybody using it) in a similar fashion to the Psiforger boots working against Gravitars?
about that skill cap of 127 in old days when u had 127 and got a buff like from a bard or just a extra stat bonus u went into negative skill. so whoever wanna get ultra high lock-pick skill maybe u wanna check this out .
As to 2, there's no 'breaking point', its normal use in stores is maxed at a certain amount, but you would have to get it very high indeed (over 90) to max t out at the least favorable stores. Standard usage aside, there are also a custom scripted use for it. Funky