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Post by Yomi on Jun 24, 2008 20:35:58 GMT
Aribeth, I wasn't saying the build was bad, just saying I think bundling Tenser's from a scroll/item is misleading. I'm already on the fence about things like "134 AC with Girding and song". I've been convinced that that's ok as long as you mention the bonuses, since almost all Hells groups having girding and song. But as an example, all builds can put "70 SR!" in their features list since anyone can use the thid ring, but I find it misleading. I know some tanks use Divine Might from armor before spawning, but that's a combat tactic rather than a build feature. I think including Craft Weapon bonuses from your gear and song make sense. Teldar's Belt is quite rare at the moment so I'd definitely do what Ralkain does, which is call it out as a special case. I'm not sure how you could get higher from a Tank, its a great 2-handed weapon used one handed with overwhelming/dev crit (14-20x4) with a huge AB and Strength to back it up along with 9D6 sneak attack damage tacked on top... Take a dire mace barbarian not using shield. He'll take pretty much everything you've got offensively and get 4 extra attacks a round. He could use Ev's or Asmo gloves and the Sneak Pandect for 7D6 sneaks if you want, and gets bonus unresistable damage via Mighty Rage. I suspect that would put a huge smack down on the RDD. That said, the RDD is going to be much better off defensively and probably with saves as well. They're quite different ways of making str tanks.
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Post by Aribeth on Jun 24, 2008 21:20:14 GMT
Kins,
I am sorry that I inferred that you didnt like the build.
Actually I agree with your points.
What I was saying is that even if you take away all the gimmicks, the build stays solid because of A B C.....
I, and I imagine like you, am critical when I look at builds and have a tendency to look at builds like a weapon system in which I look at each feat, skill taken and to what level, stat taken, equipment choice etc and how it fits in and synergizes as a whole. The more a build synergizes usually the better the build
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Post by Ralkain on Jun 25, 2008 12:31:17 GMT
Aribeth, I wasn't saying the build was bad, just saying I think bundling Tenser's from a scroll/item is misleading. Well to be fair I never listed that in the build unitl Aribeth asked me what it was . So I figured out all my AB bonuses and responded and then updated the build with them. I have updated it again, listing the 104 AB as the norm, with the ability to go to 107 with tensers for a short time against those more troublesome foes. Actually its 134 without girding, 138 with it... Yes, but this build has Divine Might as a feat, so its a build feature for this one. Though I don't find it all that useful, but extra damage is hard to see without a log watcher . I didn't include any from Gear, just song. Every hell party has a song up. Your Craft weapon skill will be 69 all on your own and the song will take you over 80. So I count +2 from craft weapon, you could get +3 with gear bonuses, but that would be rare and not the norm I'd think. He'd only have 2 more attacks per round if shapestrong or Large, 4 more if medium. But at -2 per Barb attack, the DD wouldn't be far behind him in damage and maybe about even if shapestrong or large . So your tank options pretty much are great offense, low defense or almost as great offense and great defense I chose the latter with this build.
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Post by bort on Jun 25, 2008 22:44:32 GMT
Barbs (dramatically) outdamage DDs and XDDs because of the added Sonic and (unresistable) cold damage they get.
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Post by Ralkain on Jun 26, 2008 12:07:40 GMT
Barbs (dramatically) outdamage DDs and XDDs because of the added Sonic and (unresistable) cold damage they get. I'm sure they do outdamage this build, but I wouldn't say dramatically. Both get cold damage, but the Barbs is unresistable. As I said previously when the reports used to be commonplace, this build regularly finished in the top 3. I'm sure the ones who had more were Barbs . Aribeth's concern was damage dealing capability, I wasn't trying to say this was the best, I know that its not. Just that its pretty good...
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Post by Yomi on Jun 26, 2008 18:49:22 GMT
I wouldn't discount the divine might added damage. Testing on a Pit Fiend it brought the damage per hit to almost that of a barbarian. This build has 15 uses, each lasting 10 (non-demi) to 12 (double demi) rounds, adding that much extra divine damage. Without the divine might the PF will stick around a few more rounds before dropping.
You mention in a post that you have Listen, but it's not mentioned at all in the build post. Maxing Listen and bonuses like ESF Listen and getting C/C will make you hit concealed things like Pit Fiends more often than extra AB given where you are.
This build does indeed do a great deal of damage per hit (Heavy Flail is a great choice), and with a high AB it's not going to miss via AC. I do however find it hard to believe how blithely you discount two to four extra attacks when each hit does approximately the same damage and the starting AB is similar. Just in case we're going to go around this circle again, I'm not saying the build is flawed, I'm not saying it doesn't do great damage, I'm not saying it isn't very well rounded. You wrote "I'm not sure how you could get higher from a Tank" and I replied with a few examples (dire mace barbarian especially medium size without shield, possibly dire mace Paladin). Neither of those builds have the defense this one does, to my knowledge (though their crit immunity is helpful).
Lately when looking at logs, I haven't seen any RDD's near the top other than a few BFM tanks, who can also boost their damage output if they can put their firebrands to good use. I don't think those people have posted their builds. Looking at the damage output of this build in my Pit Fiend test I'm a little surprised as I'd expect this tank to do pretty well.
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Post by Ralkain on Jun 27, 2008 14:19:43 GMT
I wouldn't discount the divine might added damage. Testing on a Pit Fiend it brought the damage per hit to almost that of a barbarian. No I do see an effect, especially on Pit Fiends, but without a log watcher you can never be sure. When I first built it I didn't have listen, but when I reincarnated as a BG instead of Pally I added it. You can see there's a lot of free skill points listed in the build, I put them in Listen. I'm still on the fence on how valueable listen is if you have Blind Fight (which this build does). But I bought it to maximize damage as it clearly helps some. Against 90% conceal, Blind Fight will drop that to 81%, but max listen would only drop it to 76.37%. Clearly better, is it worth the effort trying to get to 127 listen, your call, but my version of this build has base 68 (63+5 for wis), plus whatever buffs I can get, so it helps some for sure. Yeah it hangs pretty well on damage. I didn't mean to imply I was discounting it, but it can vary greatly depending on the Barb build so I'm only willing to conceed the damage to Barbs in general, but as you see with your testing, this isn't far behind. Certainly not dramatically as bort suggests. No problem Yomi, I'm not taking any of this personal or feel that I'm arguing. I like the build and play it as my main character, I posted it for others to use. I'm not defensive about criticism or anything, nor do I think you're trying to put it down. Yes that's what I wrote, but in my head it was "I'm not sure how you could get *much* higher from a tank". Guess my fingers can't keep up with my brain , my bad. Yes I knew you could eeek out a bit more from a tank, but I always felt you gave up way to much defense to get it. IMO, a tank's primary roll is to Tank, so defense is important, damage is too, but secondary so that's what this build tries to do. Also Barbs are feat tight and I'm not sure what Str any barb you may have in mind would end at, but it likely would be a bit lower than this builds making the equivalent AB thing a bit up in the air for me so I simply conceeded more damage, but not drastically more as bort said and as your testing seemed to help determine. Don't forget this build has temporary crit immunity for those boss fights. Slap on your L4 Blackguard spell to be immune to crits, I do it sometimes, but rarely need it (though I seem to do it during the Quimath fights just to be safe . The normal high parry and HPs seem to work just fine... Thanks, I think it does do pretty well on damage, but I've never been fond of ranking things on damage anyway. It varies so much depending on how the person plays. Sure, I could play this guy to go after the junk mobs and crank out the damage, but that doesn't help the party or fulfill the correct role IMO. Thanks for the interest in the build, right now I'm playing an open race version in HC mode and I'm thinking of posting that...
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Post by Ralkain on Jul 17, 2008 13:20:22 GMT
Published an open subrace of this build and updated this with a link to it.
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Post by bort on Aug 12, 2008 11:38:51 GMT
Took me this long to see that you'd replied to my question about how you got Tensers. Are you sure reading Tensers from a scroll gives you +15 lbab (+18 with LWF)? According to Acaos that requires caster level 41, which you won't get from a scroll - unless that's a bug... ...Or do you just use the Uxan plate for caster level 50 divine power? Cheers, -Bort
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Post by Ralkain on Jan 10, 2009 6:46:49 GMT
Updated the skills section and updated the AC based on semi-recent armor changes. The AB is confirmed from the logs and doesn't involve tensers at all.
I will try to get an updated picture soon the next time he's fully buffed.
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Post by Ralkain on Jan 16, 2009 1:57:14 GMT
Updated the picture to show him at double demi. Everything is correct except the AB of course. His confirmed AB from the logs is really 107 fully buffed, will be 108 after Str arti.
I know most folks want the confusion immune arti, but he's only ever been confused once or twice in his career. The extra +1 AB/Damage is much more useful IMO.
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Post by Ralkain on Jan 25, 2009 18:43:32 GMT
Updated with gear selection...
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