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Post by zerragon on Jan 12, 2007 10:50:37 GMT
Would Planewalker be a solid choice for this build ? As far as I can see, it would be the second best choice, featuring extra dex, con and int.
No cha bonus, so saves will be a little lower, but all saves would still surpass 60 at lvl 60.
Edit: Ah, I forgot, the character will be slower as the others have increased speed modifiers. (except Siren).
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Post by Yomi on Jan 12, 2007 18:37:21 GMT
Adding some more comments: You can use displacement for 50% conceal that allows you to use a shield, but it's short lasting. There are times, such as when you'll be forced to suck up implodes and don't have another solution, when this is useful -- equip shield, cast displacement, suffer the conceal loss. This I hear is also useful if you don't have a mord ring in the desert. But in general you really, really, really want the bard's super EV. Your available gear will differ of course. I'll show two cases where my "normal" gear includes things most people will have after ssith, immo, etc. runs and I don't believe includes any UR's required. The "great" gear would be the best I know of, though how you mix and match stuff to cover all your immunities and stats etc. are up to you, and certainly there may be items I don't know. Also, I didn't have all this gear when I started -- my bard had a fairly low AC when starting but fortunately all that conceal mitigates the AC to a large degree (depends on where you go -- in beholders you need the AC also since their ab is a lot higher). I know I eagerly awaited hitting the next 45/50/55/60 mark as each one meant an extra 5% conceal from EV and it was very noticible. Also note that there are two things that will make these numbers change from 40 to 60. Putting points into tumble in LL's will raise your AC 4 points. Raising your dex and/or wisdom through stat increases and Great Dex/Wis feats will also raise your AC -- this is a pretty substantial amount of AC gained in LL's -- about 11AC from 40 to 60 for many. Of course you don't have a 120AC at level 40. Lastly, your racial choice and initial stats will have an impact, as your dex and wisdom won't necessarily be the same. For my normal numbers I've assumed starting stats of 18 dex 14 wis to end at 60 dex with equipment, while the best numbers assume starting at 20 dex 14 wis (some races get a +1 from either higher dex or higher wis) to end at 62 dex with equipment. Your stats may differ. It's also possible to get a temporary +2 to your robes from the cleric epic girding. I'm not showing that. | normal gear | great gear | base | 10 | 10 | natural | 15 | 16 | robes | 13 | 14 | deflection | 15 | 16 | dodge+haste | 20 | 20 | tumble | 12 | 12 | armor skin | 2 | 2 | wisdom | 8 | 8 | dex | 25 | 26 | total | 120 | 124 |
My level 60 siren bard has a 122 AC. She has +16 deflection and is using the +14 UR bard robes. But wearing a +15 ssith amulet (the wisdom and con are nice), hence losing 1 AC over a different equipment setup. Combine this with 80% concealment and this is good enough to tank most places including beholders and illithids (but don't forget heals). It's no halfling death, but combined with song for your party members and cursing of the enemies and it's darned effective. Trust me, when you leave the party the mages will wonder why their wail is bugged since it just isn't working like it used to! Nope, flatfooted AC on the build is poor, as the original post pointed out (I have it saved on my computer). You lose all your dex, dodge, and tumble AC, which means if you don't have concealment up you're going to be singing the "rez?" song a lot. If you have EV up and you equip a shield, EV goes away. Losing all that conceal for 16 points of flatfooted AC is a horrible, horrible, horrible idea. With displacement (50% conceal) it's mildly tolerable. Yes, those of us who have played a bard have been there and at least we feel your pain. Many have never played a bard and say little other than "sing plz" (which you'll hear over and over, but to be fair, bardsong is awesome to have on for meleers or anyone wanting a boost to skills or saves) and "come on dude, run up and curse!" since they don't understand why this is hazerdous to your health. Cursing seems to make you go flatfooted, much like pickpocketing does. My halfling death (another fine Yue build!) took hardly any damage in most places until she did pickpocket, where she'd get whacked good. Similarly, your bard runs up, you hit curse, and watch as your arms go up and flail about, nothing happening, while they get to beat on you repeatedly, until finally the curse goes off and you can run away. This is where you really must have the concealment from EV to survive. I'll also say that some skill can be put into when to hit curse and what its radius is, where to stand etc. which should get easier with more experience. You need a mord ring in the desert. Until then, I think displacement (perhaps + shield) is how you'll have to go, as without EV up you really can't survive well at all, especially if you're trying to curse. I remember playing my bard in the early days before I'd ever seen a mord ring. Ouch -- seriously ouch. You just have to get one.
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Post by Yomi on Jan 12, 2007 19:11:45 GMT
Would Planewalker be a solid choice for this build ? Shard and Siren get some nice feats -- arguably only one of those is required. Shard, Pixie, and Atomie do have the advantage of fast movement which is nice especially if you take the 4 pal 1 monk route (so couldn't get any more speed from FoM). I made a siren 4P1M version so no extra speed and it works, though the extra speed would be appreciated. Planewalker doesn't have a charisma bonus, so the stats don't work out quite as well even if you use halfling, though maybe you could fiddle with swapping great cha for great con to better take advantage of the plusses. Until you get that cha to 16 you won't have EV or EB. Planewalker is great overall and I'd be tempted vs. siren or atomie, but no contest vs. Shard. Some other interesting choices would be FA (good stats and striding) or Half-Celestial (good stats, striding, and SR 70). Assuming you do have Shard, human or halfling would be my question. Human is a solid choice. Halfling gives you a whopping 40% xp penalty, but in trade you can do 14 dex 16 con to start yielding the same final dex but two higher CON, letting you drop two Great Con feats for the same result. So halfling nets you: 40% xp penalty, -2 STR, small stature (often +1 AC and ab), and one free feat. You're probably going to be forced to use dagger as your weapon given your small size (fortunately dagger's are nice) and you won't be able to use a longbow.
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 10, 2007 20:00:19 GMT
Thought I'd post about my version of this (made before the updated post incidentally ) which reached 60 a while back. She's currently tagged up through Malboge and has been very good at staying upright in the hells unless caught FF or dispelled or Lemured for long periods of time. Instead of being CON focused like the original post this one focused on AC - taking Great Wisdom 1-4 instead of the Con feats (though starting stats were identical). I took the greater focuses in transmutation for keening my own rapiers but I think in the long run this may have been a mistake given that Dispater weapons are pre-keened and I could have taken another 2 great wisdom for another point of AC. Regardless, this is how she looks now with +3 AC from BUR gear but no cleric buff - could gain another +2 AC from that assuming I were using BUR robes instead of bracers. This is also after using the wisdom artifact. Final AC with all UR gear would be 127. The sheet is of course lying about AB, actual is about 70-72. -S
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Post by nerohdam on Mar 14, 2007 20:33:06 GMT
Wow shards are cool...what is a shard anyway? My saytr is okay but can't wait to get a different subrace!
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Post by Yomi on Mar 14, 2007 22:00:27 GMT
Wow shards are cool...what is a shard anyway? Shard, from Planewalker.com. I chose a build more similar to Makoto for my second cheese bard, though went halfling. This cost me 2 str, 1 beginning feat, and a 40% xp penalty, but let me get +2 CON while keeping DEX and WIS identical. Thereby letting me get the same 22 CON only taking Great CON 1 and 2 -- a net one feat savings. I also should get small stature advantages. With the vain assumption I could obtain a WIS artifact and appropriate BURs, compared to Sabre's Grykati it looks like mine will be 1 AC down, 120 hp up, no keening, and a free feat for something or other (maybe epic damage reduction). I think Sabre's idea of working on AC is a good one, much as I like lots of hp. Redoing I'd probably still pick halfling but pump DEX up instead of CON at the start, then take Great Wis 1-4. End result would be the same AC as a human who took Great Wis 1-6 but 1 higher ab, 1 extra feat left over, and small stature (don't forget the 40% xp penalty, 2 lower str, and limited choice of weapons).
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Post by nerohdam on Mar 19, 2007 15:53:45 GMT
Very neat idea Yomi...
I ended up with a fey satyr for my bard. I ended up going the 3 monk 2 paladin route. Is the 4 paladin 1 monk route better? Besides taking longer to level due to xp penalty is there any other disadvantage/advantage?
Also concerning weapon choice, I did the rapier and dagger in the off hand but am wondering if 2 daggers is better.
Also what are the disadvantages of taking human over halfling. Does the xp penalty stack?
Thanks
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Post by Yomi on Mar 19, 2007 19:41:07 GMT
Is the 4 paladin 1 monk route better? Besides taking longer to level due to xp penalty is there any other disadvantage/advantage? Advantage of 2P3M: - no xp penalty (assuming human base race)
- fast movement via someone casting freedom on you (any cleric, druid, ranger, or paladin has it and it lasts a long time) or by using your expeditious retreat spell (relatively short duration). Some people get very addicted to the fast speed.
- higher saves (doubt you need them assuming UR equipment)
- If you use kamas, deflect arrows works (not a big deal in my opinion, and meaningless if you don't plan on using kamas).
Advantages of 4P1M: - 4 base attacks instead of 3 (this is pretty big)
- 1 higher ab (buffed up bard has pretty good ab)
The big things I see are 4P1M gets the maximum number of attacks but has an xp penalty. The 2P3M sacrifices that extra attack to get no xp penalty and fast movement. I went two rapier on my first bard and then spent a couple feats on dagger proficiency to get good ab while wielding rapier+dagger. The feats aren't required, and I've seen plenty of people do dual rapier and live with the -2 penalty to all attacks, as rapiers have very nice damage types. One nice thing about rapier + dagger is you'll have a wider variety of damage types without swapping weapons around. Dual dagger does get you the highest ab with the fewest feats. Going halfling will net you a 40% xp penalty regardless of what combination of paladin and monk levels you do. Some people would find this extremely irritating (and being annoyed playing your character all the time is not good). Going Human gives you a choice of no penalty (2P3M) or 20% (4P1M). If you choose Halfling you're pretty much stuck doing dual dagger -- rapiers are two handed weapons for halflings. Humans get a bonus skill point per level.
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Post by nerohdam on Mar 20, 2007 19:27:38 GMT
Thanks Yomi for your replies. I have a few more if you have a patience....
I noticed that all the posted bards seem to be dex based with two weapon abilities. At one point I noticed a barbarian bard which was very intriguing as the arguments made for it seemed sound. Also is dual weilding all that important versus being more strength based and using something like say a scimitar non dual welding? Or does all the dex and weapon finesse help in other areas that would be more beneficial for the bard.
I assume the dex build bards are due to getting higher rates of avoiding attacks and for weapon finess which uses dex but how about something like Yue's cheese build but strenth based ie barbarian to have more feats for constitution and fortitude saves.
Finally, what are the main differences between Yue's cheese bard and something like zerogravityse's lonely bard? Is shadow dancer a better fit for a bard than pally/monk combo? or red dragon disciple? or even harper scout... oh the possibilities...
I love bards...
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Post by Yomi on Mar 20, 2007 23:05:52 GMT
I noticed that all the posted bards seem to be dex based with two weapon abilities. At one point I noticed a barbarian bard which was very intriguing as the arguments made for it seemed sound. Also is dual weilding all that important versus being more strength based and using something like say a scimitar non dual welding? Or does all the dex and weapon finesse help in other areas that would be more beneficial for the bard. Dex based for AC while maintaining the high level EV. A dex based bard with decent wisdom and one or more monk levels can get in the 122-130 AC range while having 70% conceal. If you chose str based, your AC using robes would be significantly less -- on the order of 110. If you instead went plate + shield like most str builds, you'd lose out on your special EV and also would have to take still and/or autostill feats. You'd also lose your monk wisdom bonus. I'd expect final AC to be about 118 using UR gear -- less than the dex build but with 0-25% conceal instead of 70% (but more damage immunity and bonuses from shield). Don't underestimate the contribution high level conceal makes -- str tanks are often stoned on DB runs because regardless of what AC they have there are so many attacks things will roll 20s and you will roll 1s on your saves. The str bards I've seen have used RDD and/or PM levels to give stat, AC, and special ability bonuses. An RDD/PM str bard can get into the 131+ AC range. But lousy conceal and needs to strip or use still spell to cast anything. And is generally a pretty sucky bard compared to a cheese bard (but 38 bard levels is far better than no bard in the party). Not to mention feat starved and has to spend a bunch of those few to pump up saves. The dex bard gets high level conceal, good AC, and also gets a lot of attacks (6-10 per round depending on build and weapons). The various str bards people are toying with lately are all about the Hells and str checks. By all means, experiment. The cheese bard is named because it takes full advantage of splashing the other two classes. Much like a cheese sorc is one that splashes one level of paladin and one level of monk. In this case one monk level gives you evasion and adds your wisdom bonus to AC. Paladin gives you the high ab progression as well as adds your quite decent charisma bonus to saves. This lets one have a high level bard that still gets the maximum number of attacks, great saves, good AC, and evasion. I looked into making a pure caster bard for Hells and it was pretty clear that without one paladin level I'd be tossing a lot of feats into saves, while the cheese bard gets 9-10 added to all saves without spending any feats. RDD is nice, but you really need 10 levels for the prime benefits. That's a lot of bard levels lost. The stat bonuses are also more attractive for a str build. Shadow Dancer instead of monk will cost you at least one more level -- that's 5% conceal at the end of the build. It also just cost you your wisdom bonus to your AC -- losing 8 to 12 AC is really harsh. It bought you HIPS which is admittedly really cool in non-LL areas, but kind of useless after you turn 40. It also got you uncanny dodge. Getting uncanny dodge as a tradeoff for losing 8 or more flatfooted AC and 5% conceal is a terrible trade. Moving up to 10 levels to get improved evasion and slippery mind cost you 2 bonus feats and 8 bard levels. Taking barbarian instead of paladin isn't so bad -- you get uncanny dodge and lose the save bonus. My experience playing in LL's is that those saves are really important. You may be able to get away with it assuming high enough values (Gry'Kati's numbers would indicate saves of 56,73,58 which are good enough for non-Hells), but I'd be leery of it. I haven't played the Lonely Bard build you mention, nor have I studied it much. But glancing at it, it seems like your saves will be a lot lower (maybe passable for pre-Hells but not good either, and that final Will save of 50 will be a total nightmare). Your AC will be a lot lower (no wisdom bonus), and 5% less conceal. Your song and curse are 5 levels lower. You lost 2 bonus feats. You don't have the maximum number of attacks that a 4P1M would get, nor do you have the fast speed of a 2P3M. But no xp penalty. You did get improved evasion and slippery mind. I really don't think it's a good tradeoff. The builds that come to mind that are both interesting and effective are this one, a caster bard (either with 1 pal 1 monk or pure), a WM version like Funky's Whistling Pixie / Unchained Melody, an AA bard (mostly bard with 1-4 AA levels), or armored str bards using RDD and/or PM levels. Goodness knows there are other variations.
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Post by nerohdam on Mar 21, 2007 3:44:36 GMT
Wow Yomi! Thanks so much for your patience with me. After reading your comments you have really laid out the pros and cons of all the various builds. Based upon your comments, I think I will stick with the dex based bard. I really like Yue's build but I think I will do the 4 pal/1 monk varation instead of the 3 monk/2pal. I don't mind the xp penalty.
Thanks again Yomi!
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Post by nerohdam on Apr 4, 2007 20:11:42 GMT
Besides getting 2 extra attacks per round, is there an advantage for burning 2 feats to dual wield? (two weapon feat, ambidex). If I was to go with a non-dual wielding toon then would a rapier be the best way to go or dagger or handaxe for a weapon focus. Also are whips weapon finessable and are they even a good weapon? If i did go with dual wielding, is a spear weapon finessable? I don't imagine so but I recently saw the movie 300 and thought wow those spear they use don't seem to require much strength to impale your enemy. That would be cool to make spears finessable.
Finally, if i decided not to dual wield what additional feats would be recommended to take?
Thanks.
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Post by Yomi on Apr 4, 2007 21:38:36 GMT
In my opinion, if you're not dual wielding, rapier all the way. A lot of people on their dual wielding builds use dual rapiers since the damage is better even with the -2 ab (these are usually characters that have plenty of ab however).
Handaxes are possible, though I think they have more appeal to WM's who like the high crits or monks as a kama alternative that doesn't require a feat.
Whips are finesseable, but I wouldn't recommend them. Rapiers are so much better.
Two-hand weapons (e.g. spear) cannot be finessed. Appealing to my imagination of reality, think of using a light rapier or a dagger vs. using a very large spear. The moment of inertia is going to be huge comparitively, making it more strength intensive. The majority of the mass on a rapier or dagger is generally very near the base, making it more of a finesse weapon (sabre to a lesser degree and the line between daggers and shortswords is blurry). When a 200 pound critter wearing 60+ pounds of armor charges into you, you'd better have that spear solidly planted on something, notwithstanding what we see in kung fu movies and The Stand of the 1800 Toned Abs 300. Not to mention that the hobbit trying to impale someone wearing decent armor is going to just bounce off.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 4, 2007 22:23:24 GMT
Whips are finesseable, but I wouldn't recommend them. Rapiers are so much better. They aren't dualable either, if memory serves. Funky
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Post by nerohdam on Apr 5, 2007 14:39:30 GMT
Okay, humor me once again...
Let's say I do dual wield, one thing i have noticed in all the weapon selections is the absence of gloves. Are they finessable? Does the dual wielding work on those? Plus it is bludgeoning damage which I like vs the piercing damage of both dagger and rapier.
Also is the disarm of the whip pretty decent? I am thinking if I do not use the dual wield option then I could get exotic weapon proficiency and then hot key between whip and rapier. Kind of like disarm and then swap to make swiss cheese out of my enemy while taunting them. Like that of a singing swash buckler who agravates his opponent because he is hard to hit and at the same time not really being a one kill wonder but adds insult to the sting of his weapon over a long period of time before their demise.
I used to play a MUDD (Achaea) and they had a bard that was more of a swashbuckler who had the ability to swing up into the trees and while it was never stated that he flipped into the trees above I would imagine that it was a whip that was used to help swing up into the treetops. But that is a whole different game.
Anyway, just a few more variations I thought about.
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