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Post by sabregirl on Apr 5, 2007 18:08:53 GMT
Unarmed is a finessable "weapon" and I've toyed with it as an idea - you can't dual unarmed but you'll get more high AB attacks than wielding a melee weapon single handed and you'd be able to wear a torch in your offhand without sacrificing EV but you have to give up a bracer slot for gloves. IIRC the dase damage even with only 3monk levels is better than most finessable weapons but the critical hits are terrible. If you wanted to save dualing feats it might be an almost viable option.
Whips are unfortunately rather useless since they can't be used in offhand, and disarm alone is pretty terrible you need improved and high AB to make disarm worthwhile, things you can't generally get by just using whips.
Generally though you want to dual wield some finessable weapon, daggers or swordswords seem to be good choices. Dualing is primarily for making up damage for not going wm - imo.
-S
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Post by nerohdam on Apr 5, 2007 20:10:32 GMT
Interesting info about the gloves... It would seem that gloves would actually be automatically dual wielding due to the nature of that style of fighting plus would add a positive to the negative fact that you do lose a bracer spot going unarmed. Oh well....
What is this whole torch thing? i have now read quite a few threads about holding a torch in the off hand. What does that do?
Too bad to hear about the whips. I mean not only do you have to burn a feat to get exotic but the disarm is not even worthwhile to swap after disarming. A whip in the main and a dagger in the off hand would have been neat.
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Post by Yomi on Apr 5, 2007 21:58:47 GMT
What is this whole torch thing? i have now read quite a few threads about holding a torch in the off hand. What does that do? You have 4 options for your offhand: (1) empty. This is a generally poor option as it gives no benefits over a torch/flag. It's the ones archers use if they want to use their bow however. Thank the All-Father for DB bows with awesome damage to make up for it. (2) shield. This is a poor option for the bard except in special cases as you lose your wisdom bonus and more importantly you lose your super EV. I do not believe bards get to take advantage of the special EV shields. The special situation is typically using the Preservation shield for its implode immunity, using either displacement, sheath, or ducking+running+prayer to counteract the loss of concealment. (3) a second weapon. With dual wielding feats this offers two more attacks (with associated ab penalty to all attacks). In a lot of areas bards have plenty of defense and stats, so a second weapon adds two extra attacks a round with little penalty. (4) a torch or flag. These include such items as the Epic Flag of Ascension (set drop), Skull of Iyachtu Xvim (UR), Standard of Anhur (UR), Eyestalk of Death (Beholder), the Legendary Horn of Blasting, and the Hells torches. A fist monk would almost always want to use one of these. For a bard, you can use one or use a second weapon. The Epic Flag of Ascension is a set drop, usable at level 15 I believe, and gives true sight and haste. It is craftable to a smaller form. It's quite common for mages and monks to use this for a while. Most people in game could help you get one. The Standard of Anhur is usable at level 21, gives +15 soak 10, true sight, haste, and +8 to 4 stats. This is a really nice deal. My bard used it for quite a while until her other equipment handled most of those things -- right now the flag is giving her almost no benefit. In the level 20s the flag was awesome. The Legendary Horn of Blasting gives you +20 soak 10, 100% sonic immunity, some bard spell slots, and some other things. You also look ridiculous wearing it as it looks like you have a giant growth coming out of your nose. I don't recall the details, but this item is immo only and usable only by bards. There are times when this is quite useful -- I used to use it when my bard did the maze as the bard slots were quite useful (this was before Dachy bard gear, and before I personally got the UR robes or bard helm) and the extra soak was nice also. But I rarely use it now. If you're light on defense or hurting for spell slots, then this is a good deal. My bard always at least carries one.
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Post by nerohdam on Apr 6, 2007 15:51:02 GMT
So does the torch provide fire damage besides light?
So it also sounds like you had periods where you do not dual weild and so in essence you kind of wasted two feats. Correct me if you did not use the flags and other such items that much.
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Post by Yomi on Apr 6, 2007 17:24:22 GMT
None of the flags besides the Legendary Horn do any damage that I'm aware of. You'll have to find a Leg Horn and experiment with it or ask someone in game to see what it does. Personally I find it less effective in almost all situations than just stabbing the things. The flags do however provide a variety of stats, immunities, protections, spell slots, and other things. If you don't have other items to raise CON, DEX, WIS, etc. then one of these off-hand items can be a huge deal. If you're getting hit a lot in some area and taking physical damage, then getting a free soak 10 to the attacks is a big deal. If you can't cover immunities adequately with rings or other items, then elemental immunity from a flag is a big deal. If you're getting tossed in the air by gravitars and a torch makes them stop, then that's a huge deal. If the WoF's in Ssith are driving you nuts and a torch stops them then maybe it's worth using that one. In all cases it's a tradeoff vs. damage dealt. Your choice. Fragment mentioned in another post that he uses the legendary horn most of the time and rarely uses a weapon, so recommends considering dropping the dual weapon feats. On the other hand, I used the Anhur flag until about level 45 and almost never use a flag any more. Did I waste two feats? No, not for me. "periods where you do not dual wield" By the same token, I have toons that have wasted large numbers of feats on getting extremely high saves, because there are many periods where I'm not making high DC saves. That's silly. Did I dual wield in my 20s? No -- having +8 to 4 stats and 10 less physical taken off every hit is crazy good at that level (the CON plus the extra AC plus the soak means about half damage taken). But if I didn't have one of the fancy UR flags (which my first 23 characters did not have access to), then I'd likely be dual wielding as getting true sight at that level isn't remotely worth the loss of the extra two attacks. In the 30s it's a tradeoff, as now more equipment choices are open and the flag benefits aren't as overpowering. As a brand new level 40 venturing into LL areas, I chose to use the flag as again those stats and soak were awfully useful. Similarly I would expect brand new immo bards, especially ones with little other equipment to, upon seeing a Legendary Horn of Blasting, go wild for it and keep it equipped for a while. It's too handy for keeping one alive at that level. However, my bard gave that flag to another character because I never use it any more. I carry the Legendary Horn and Broken Covenant (Illithid torch) in inventory but rarely use them -- I have a dagger in my offhand 90+% of the time. I'm sure when my bard starts doing Hells runs I'll be looking for the various Hells torchs as they help covering all the needed elemental immunities there, but that's a pretty extreme place. My previous bard used dual rapiers or rapier+dagger all the time except for the maze where the extra healing circles were worth the loss of the extra attacks for her.
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Post by sabregirl on Apr 6, 2007 17:56:25 GMT
Another way to put dualing, is if you give up the feats you give up the option to dual wield at all. I've built a fair number of bards, two of them to level 60 (all with dualing feats thus far) and I very rarely use a torch in off-hand. Additionally when I do use a torch rather than a second weapon in off-hand the difference in damage and time to kill individual mobs is very noticable. Even in the hells, up to malboge, my bard has only used a torch/horn when tanking bosses. If you want to not "waste" feats on dual wielding you might want to just go ahead and build a caster bard or go unarmed rather than pretending you're going to make much of a melee damage contribution.
-S
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Post by mishimayukio on Apr 8, 2007 0:51:36 GMT
Finally got my new bard to 60, updated main post with new picture.
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Post by nerohdam on Apr 9, 2007 15:49:49 GMT
Congrats Yue on getting your bard to 60 !!
In hindsight is there anything you would change that would make the build better or anything you would change due to not needing a feat, stat, etc....
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Post by mishimayukio on Apr 9, 2007 21:02:35 GMT
Yeah, I would have taken 2 more con instead of epic damage reduction if I had thought it out more before reaching LLs.
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Post by warder10 on Apr 22, 2007 23:17:29 GMT
I have a question? What would be the downside of using kamas as main weapon with this build?
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Post by Trazik on Apr 23, 2007 10:22:36 GMT
I have been toying with a dex-bard build. I do not have access to any of the listed subraces (only kenku, rakshasa and averial). I have noticed that the dex-bards with monk in the build (for wisdom AC) all lack uncanny dodge, and I have seen many die, for example, to guardians in Maze of the Ancients. And so my idea was Rakshasa Bd35-Pal3-SD2. The saves will be high, but I plan to use a shield for the AC (8 wisdom ). This build does not get 16 BAB and dual weapons seems a bit feat intensive. I would appreciate constructive criticism and ideas. To be honest, I am only luke-warm about this build and am inclined to revisit it if and when I can get a few nice UR or BUR subraces (hopefully soon as I am almost ready for Hells). Kind regards, Trazik
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Post by bort on Apr 23, 2007 11:51:22 GMT
I have been toying with a dex-bard build. I do not have access to any of the listed subraces (only kenku, rakshasa and averial). I have noticed that the dex-bards with monk in the build (for wisdom AC) all lack uncanny dodge, and I have seen many die, for example, to guardians in Maze of the Ancients. And so my idea was Rakshasa Bd35-Pal3-SD2. The saves will be high, but I plan to use a shield for the AC (8 wisdom ). Uncanny dodge means you retain your dex bonus to AC while flatfooted... which you won't be unless you're letting something hit you without hitting it back; and the only good reason for that is if you're stunned, knocked down or otherwise incapacitated (not likely to happen much in the maze). Also, wearing a shield will nerf the conceal you would otherwise get from Ethereal Visage
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Post by phalthallus on Apr 23, 2007 17:05:58 GMT
Also, wearing a shield will nerf the conceal you would otherwise get from Ethereal Visage Except for the Dis shields
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Post by sabregirl on Apr 23, 2007 17:14:16 GMT
Not true Phal. Dis shields are only for sorcs and wiz, not bards.
-S
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Post by phalthallus on Apr 23, 2007 17:24:18 GMT
Drats! But they work for any character that has ANY levels of wiz or sorc? Is that right? Also, are there any BUR shields that have this property available to other classes? (Not to hijack this thread)
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