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Post by bloodwynn on Jun 22, 2007 23:20:54 GMT
Ahh my bad. Thanks.
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Post by nerohdam on Jul 2, 2007 15:25:53 GMT
I read somewhere that taking legendary weapon focus gives better ab and other benefits versus epic prowess. If that is the case then does the cheese need updated to match the changes.
Comments?!
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Post by Senaattori on Sept 16, 2007 13:56:39 GMT
Hmmm.. How this build would work with chaos gnome?
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Post by fragment on Sept 17, 2007 17:30:14 GMT
Hmmm.. How this build would work with chaos gnome? You can't really go wrong with this build. I made my dexer bard after examining this build and then proceeded to level more or less without guidance - it worked, after a little whining somewhere earlier in this thread Some things to consider. - The pally level adds saves, but restricts you to being lawful good. I since reincarnated my dexer bard alignment-independent with fighter levels and save feats instead, specifically so that I can have a character I can play in alignment-changing areas ... - You will probably not be able to reach the AC values in the screenshot unless you have excellent gear - my dexer bard (with siren) has 115 AC, 119 AC should be possible if I bothered to give her proper equipment and to level her to 60 - you should be able to get 1 or 2 more with the UR subby. Together with ethereal visage that used to be good enough, pre-hells. I don't know about hells, I also didn't play her much after the switch to hardcore rules, and I have some doubts that it would work out. - I expect bards to be able to buff weapons, so having GSF trans and LSF enchant is a good idea, at a cost of 3 feats. Regards, good luck!
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Post by Scotty the Man on Sept 22, 2007 22:08:33 GMT
Hmmm......I agree what Fusa had said before that there's no point of taking LSF enchantment since you're going over the +20 bonus cap. I would rather take the transmutation book and then use up the free feats for something else. If the meleers depend on buffs really bad, go get a mage/caster to tag along and get them to cast buffs on them, that's their job ;D
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Post by tyranlthixis on Sept 23, 2007 6:27:04 GMT
Actually +14 GMW beats a great many monsters soak DR, which alone increases the damage output of your party tremendously. Plus there is a general shortage of players with decent weapon buffs now. Seeing as caster bards are pretty much useless other than support at least they can do is buff the people who can actually damage things. This is especially true with the coming of new hells randoms. Caster bard eats up a party slot that could be, in some party make ups, better filled by an additional dex bard tank who could provide some damage and blocking support. Faster your party can get some of the new monsters down the less you're going to lose party members to limbo if your party is tank light.
Tyran
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Post by Senaattori on Sept 23, 2007 11:54:04 GMT
noooo! Does this mean my Caster bard is all in vain?!
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Post by ekstroem on Sept 23, 2007 12:44:44 GMT
noooo! Does this mean my Caster bard is all in vain?! Of course not. Even though Tyran writes you should remember that parties get the best overall support from caster bards. And it's no small thing. Caster bards lower SR, have better song, are full time gusters, cast clarity, heal tanks, taunt and bluff monsters. A dexer bard may be able to deal extra damage but the epics of a caster bard will make sure that all party members are on their feet and can deal damage to mobs and are crit immune. And in my experience I see a lot more toons with +14 GMWs nowadays than earlier. Bards, lashes, slingers and even some arcane casters. Your toon will be fine. I'd use the enchant book and get LSF enchant for +14 GMW. No point in getting GSF trans as the Dispater weapons are all keen'd. And even if that should change then keen is not that hard to come by since most arcane casters have the epic wall which is the transmute school - same as keen. Cheers, Claus (And I'm talking hells here)
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Post by Raj on Sept 23, 2007 13:01:32 GMT
Seeing as caster bards are pretty much useless other than support at least they can do is buff the people who can actually damage things. Do you realize that this sounds like assert that casters are useless other than casting spells? Given same player skill I can say a dex bard is outdated and outperformed by caster bards in today HG high level game; a dex bard is kd fodder and doesn't contribute with solid damage/crits to the party, so its presence as a tank isn't noticeable, while a caster bard keeps the party up and amplifies other casters effectiveness, other than acting as one more healer/debuffer; +14 gmw isn't a great sacrifice too, as the ench focii on a caster bard are required in the coil anyway. dex bards stay as a valid first build for newbies and a great addiction to parties in LL and upper hells, but given the choice in a balanced party I'd hire a caster one.
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Post by Scotty the Man on Sept 23, 2007 16:24:24 GMT
Hmmm, I'm going to admit that caster bards are really useful than dex bards (sorry Yue ), they help the party, especially the tanks, out to kill spawns fast and then they just sit back and watch the action going on ;D(unless they want to cast their spells on the spawn). That's what I like when I'm with the party doing runs, even when I'm using my AA .
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Post by tyranlthixis on Sept 23, 2007 17:57:57 GMT
I never said they were useless. I said they weren't as useful depending on the party make up. I've been in situations where I've thought to myself this party really needs the anti knockdown epic and I've been in situations where the party was really needing another tank more than anything. Caster bards are plenty powerful, but I disagree that dex bards are obsolete..especially now.
I also disagree that +14 gmw is common. Maybe with the people you party with alot it is, but it not in the general population. Its often hard to get anything better than +10 unless Delf's or Littlekins is in the party. Plus, like I said +14 gmw is one of the most damaging spells in the game if one person in the party can give it to everybody.
Tyran
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Post by Scotty the Man on Sept 23, 2007 18:13:11 GMT
yea, but most common you see the wiz/sorc cast GMWs and FWs on the tanks, while you rarely see a bard doing that though.
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Post by sabregirl on Sept 23, 2007 18:29:26 GMT
I think you guys are being rather short sighted saying dex bards are useless or outdated. Nowadays the majority of the KD checks are dex related, meaning that there are fewer things going to KD your dex bard anyway, and even if they do ranged attacks can do decent damage. (My dex bard can approximately eqaul a DDs damage on a pit fiend with her crossbow) And if a caster bard actually MAXES cha and takes spell pen feats so his spells aren't entirely useless (except for healing circle) then he/she is even more vulnerable to KD, except when the epic is up. And while nice the KD epic doesn't generally keep one covered for the whole run even with maxed cha.
Also note those of you that were complaining about dex bard song sucking . . . with this build you lose very little over a 60 bard in terms of bonuses - AB bonus, saves drop is the same, 1 damage, 2 skill points and 2 AC. Throw that in with up to 141 AC and 70% conceal on a dexer bard and I don't see how it's such a cut and dried case.
If you throw artist into the mix and you're pure 60 you can get 1 more save drop plus a few more bonuses, which are a bit more significant. But in that case your saves and AC are terrible meaning that you're squishy in several different more ways than the typical cheese bard here. Most caster bards I've seen are 38 1monk 1pal, which means their stoneskin doesn't do anything in the hells anyway and the only real benefit you're getting is -5 SR, which is nice but for a lot of builds to reliably cast on critters in the hells you need to mord/frailty/cloud of nimbus anyway. So that leaves the epics, which are nice but other than the KD epic, I haven't really noticed when they aren't around.
As for the +14 gmw . . . . it would be rather nice to have imo though I couldn't fit it on my dex bard. However she is able to keen blunts and such in addition to slashing. And I've run into a LOT of caster bards that don't have +14 gmw. And I dunno where you're coming from scotty but in my experience only clerics bother having decent GMW these days I haven't met a sorc or wiz with over +11 in ages. And last cania run I did with my dex bard it was me that was keeping everyone in GMW and keen.
-S
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Post by Raj on Sept 23, 2007 19:01:33 GMT
while the more common dex checks aren't a problem for the malee bard, they are for the whole party, and there the epic is a lifesaver: knowing i can face a pf+malebranche spawn where there's nowhere to hide I won't be happy to have a dex one as the only bard in deep layers
5-6 sr drop is huge vs the mass of implodeable fodder, for the big nasty guys the caster bard is usually the one using mord scrolls
gmw is usually cleric role, as good clerics get girdle anyway, and many clerics start to realize the usefulness of instruments over aegis so they're usually the main party buffers
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Post by lala on Sept 23, 2007 19:13:56 GMT
I think the 2 types of bards cannot even be compared for roles in a party. Personally I will always love to have a caster bard in party, same as I love to have mage,cleric,druid.
The remaining places that are for tanks is where I see the dex bard fitting into, and in emergencies can sing and curse. So it is possible and makes sense that a party can have both a dex bard and a caster bard.
Both have their places, but the role of a dex bard is more defined these days as a tank I feel. In other words you would not go to the deeper layers without your casters (mage/cleric/Chr bard/druid), nor without at least 1 dex tank that could also be a bard.
Cheers Lala
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