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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 24, 2007 16:28:04 GMT
Personally I would rather take a fighter bard than a caster bard to hell. Why? Well if the bard is the last one standing I reckon the Dexer has the most chance of rezzing me than the Caster. And yeah I know Caster bards can GS, well so can clerics and Mages but I've still wiped when they were in a prty under gs. Shouts of I WAS IN GS!!!!!! after the guy in GS dies always amuse me Bingo. I've often used more rezzes than the rest of the party combined when playing my dexer bard- as well as using them WAY more on the primary tanks than they use them on me. While they are fully buffed, they are very difficult to take down. Crits did hurt that, but that typically means being careful how many you try to tank. Funky Funky
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Post by sabregirl on Sept 24, 2007 16:47:49 GMT
Honestly I find this concept of a "backup singer" to be rather insulting to the dex bard. As pointed out ad nauseum their songs are really NOT that hugely different in terms of the essential requirements (when dealing with a 55 bard). Honestly would you tell a cleric that didn't have any epics but could still implode that he was "the backup cleric" and you just HAD to have another because you thought he wasn't good enough to work on his own (haven't I heard tons of praise for theurges over standard clerics?).
And again most of the time when I've been in a bad situation the KD epic hasn't saved us and the caster bard is long since dead somewhere or the KD epic wears off before the critters are dead anyway. My dex bard, like funky says, tends to use a lot of rezes, being shard she's also fast and can get into and out of trouble extremely quickly, running up to sing when someone's died curse the newest set of mobs to come up without getting dommed or stopped by every dex check going. More than once she's helped to save parties from wiping and even scored PF kills with her crossbow, I don't know of too many caster bards that can say that. And for all their KD epics I've seen caster bards KDed by pfs many many times. Most of what I've seen is a lot of standing around with healing circle up, which any cleric or druid can do even more effectively.
-S
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Post by cataclysmic on Sept 24, 2007 17:40:53 GMT
Honestly would you tell a cleric that didn't have any epics but could still implode that he was "the backup cleric" and you just HAD to have another because you thought he wasn't good enough to work on his own. -S Well in all honesty I haven't ever seen ne 1 refuse a cleric because he didn't have the epics, I have however seen people moan and whine about it openly infront of the cleric without the 'required' epics. Just like you aren't a real Bard if you can't cast a KD epic you aren't a real cleric if you can't cast an Aegis or Miracle epic. Seriously some people are just too amusing for words.
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Post by lala on Sept 24, 2007 17:58:24 GMT
Honestly I find this concept of a "backup singer" to be rather insulting to the dex bard. As pointed out ad nauseum their songs are really NOT that hugely different in terms of the essential requirements (when dealing with a 55 bard). Honestly would you tell a cleric that didn't have any epics but could still implode that he was "the backup cleric" and you just HAD to have another because you thought he wasn't good enough to work on his own (haven't I heard tons of praise for theurges over standard clerics?). And again most of the time when I've been in a bad situation the KD epic hasn't saved us and the caster bard is long since dead somewhere or the KD epic wears off before the critters are dead anyway. My dex bard, like funky says, tends to use a lot of rezes, being shard she's also fast and can get into and out of trouble extremely quickly, running up to sing when someone's died curse the newest set of mobs to come up without getting dommed or stopped by every dex check going. More than once she's helped to save parties from wiping and even scored PF kills with her crossbow, I don't know of too many caster bards that can say that. And for all their KD epics I've seen caster bards KDed by pfs many many times. Most of what I've seen is a lot of standing around with healing circle up, which any cleric or druid can do even more effectively. -S You should not feel offended being called a backup singer, Godzilla was referred to as a backup Druid as his main role was to tank and provide other benefits if no other Druid was around. Its the same for your bard, your primarily a tank as you point out that your doing a lot of rezzing and to sing and curse if there is no pure Bard. If a pure bard was in party I am sure you would defer singing and cursing to them, same way Godzilla defers shunting, etc if a pure Druid was in party. Cheers Lala
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Post by Scotty the Man on Sept 24, 2007 18:21:17 GMT
Scotty this is what I would do to this build to get sf/gsf trans and esf enchant on the pixie subby. Replace the 2handed weapon feats with sf/gsf trans....move wep focus from epic to pre-epic. fill in the epic spot with lasting inspiriation. the 2 free freats in ll would then be llwf and ll enchant, after having used the book for enchant. This will net you your goal of gsf trans and a +14 gmw. Also note you may take esf trans in place of llwf. You would be very hard pressed to get ll trans due to the fact you then would have to drop 2 con to get it, and with your ave health as is, I'm not sure that is wise. Amicus Ahh, thanks for telling me that for the pixie build . And don't forget, a dex bard can last long with the right equipment and cool buffs, such as EV. What I mean is, it won't hurt that much to drop 2 con. But if its health drops quickly in one battle, just use the heal pots for emergency ;D. But on the other hand, I think it's wise to stay with 2 con since the dex bard acts as a tank, but if I want to help the party members with no other casters around, I would then use LL transmutation to giv the other tanks GMW+the keen bonus.
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Post by borges on Sept 24, 2007 18:47:11 GMT
Just like you aren't a real Bard if you can't cast a KD epic you aren't a real cleric if you can't cast an Aegis or Miracle epic. Seriously some people are just too amusing for words. Wow, you have managed to be both ridiculous and insulting in a single post! That takes talent. I suppose that prior to the recent introduction of caster bards, the server had no real bards at all, except for the few (like QT's satyr special; or was it siren?) that were unintentionally ahead of their time. Good thing that some unknown bug or exploit allowed some crazy, dual-kama-wielding dexer to cause the first demi party to fight better, and the spawns to fight worse! Regarding clerics, I suppose the detailed and intelligent discussion regarding whether Aegis is necessary at all is completely off-base, since what *real* cleric would leave off such a critical spell?? Unless you are a turner, or a battle cleric, or you just prefer Instruments or some other epic. Maybe we have grown accustomed to relying on bard epics. That doesn't make other build choices any less "real" or, indeed, valuable.
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Post by sabregirl on Sept 24, 2007 20:55:51 GMT
And THERE is the recurring theme of this whole argument lala, the same logical fallacy over and over. A dex bard and a caster bard are NOT as hugely different in party buffing abilities as you make them out to be, certainly not as different as your zilla and a true caster druid are. Unlike a "real" druid you I don't believe I ever saw you cast mass heal or healing circle because your spellslots are constantly wiped and you have to unshift to cast. Of course you'd not be casting any of the new offensive spells because you most likely didn't bother will spell pen feats. You can't invuln at the most opportune time because of course you have to unshift for that and that gets you killed. You're an entirely different thing than a caster druid other than the epics some of which are slightly nerfed. Most caster bards I've met don't even cast anything other than healing circle - which my heavens my dex bard can cast almost as well. I'm even known to cast clarity on people . . . how crazy is that? A dex bard that . . .CASTS?! In the quantifiable terms of bard song, the differences are extremely small other than the two things the dex bard plain does not have, which are generally NOT absolutely necessary (unlike say covering AC pens). And again this leaves you with epics which honestly if you're really THAT dependent on them that you feel the need to find ANOTHER bard when you already have a perfectly good and usable one then something is wrong. Oh and the first demi cleric didn't have aegis either. -S
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Post by lala on Sept 24, 2007 21:51:47 GMT
Heh sorry Sabre but thats like saying for your dex build... and you cant use KD immunity at the ideal time, or silent immune. Zilla and your build are not that different in terms of what they are, a tank 1st. Oh and you may be surprised I do use healing circles and other spells, including 5 epics Cheers Lala
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Post by cataclysmic on Sept 24, 2007 21:55:19 GMT
Just like you aren't a real Bard if you can't cast a KD epic you aren't a real cleric if you can't cast an Aegis or Miracle epic. Seriously some people are just too amusing for words. Wow, you have managed to be both ridiculous and insulting in a single post! That takes talent. I suppose that prior to the recent introduction of caster bards, the server had no real bards at all, except for the few (like QT's satyr special; or was it siren?) that were unintentionally ahead of their time. Good thing that some unknown bug or exploit allowed some crazy, dual-kama-wielding dexer to cause the first demi party to fight better, and the spawns to fight worse! Regarding clerics, I suppose the detailed and intelligent discussion regarding whether Aegis is necessary at all is completely off-base, since what *real* cleric would leave off such a critical spell?? Unless you are a turner, or a battle cleric, or you just prefer Instruments or some other epic. Maybe we have grown accustomed to relying on bard epics. That doesn't make other build choices any less "real" or, indeed, valuable. Thanks for proving my point, oh and before going off ya head next time, I would recomend reading my previous posts in FAVOUR of the Dexer bard and try to read the sarcasm that was intended in that post. You know looking at all of this it tells me one thing, unless you make a build the 'proper' way then it is just not going to be accepted. It doesn't really seem to be about whether you enjoy playing that build or about how useful you are or even if the build works at all, but if you don't have what you are expected to have, ie. KD Epic, Wall, Shunt, Immute, Aegis, Miracle, in short the epics, then ya build is worthless. Pathetic Makes me want to build a caster bard and Demi it BEFORE I go get the epics just to wind people up
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Post by nicnik on Sept 24, 2007 22:26:40 GMT
I think the it's important who is player playing the bard. But the bard epics are definitely a great help to the party when a difficult spawn pops up (happening more now).
it's important when playing a dex bard to assess the party and determine themselves if there are enough healers in the team. Most of the time when I see dex bards (not all) they concentrate on fighting allot; whilst this is fine for most parties, sometimes when u have a cleric that loves to spam offensive spells instead of healing, the only healer in the party becomes the bard.
I think dex bards can definitely be just as effective as caster bards, but it's not easy to play. they have to concentrate on their position and do healing duties as well as tanking. the party will have to be well disciplined and perhaps perform better when bard epics are missing.
the bard epics aren't something u MUST have, but it helps just like most of the other epics. Like, if there was no miracle or no epic wall in the party, you'd have to work alot harder to suceed in the run.
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Post by borges on Sept 24, 2007 22:38:43 GMT
Cata:
Fair enough, and apologies for the misunderstanding. Sarcasm is difficult to communicate on the forums, though Funky's posts provide ample guidance. Gogogo dexer bards!
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Post by cataclysmic on Sept 24, 2007 22:45:58 GMT
Nic, I think that is one of the points Funky and Sabre are trying to make, the epics help sure but it is possible to do without, harder mebbe but no means less doable.
Borges, np and yes Funky does do it rather well hehe
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Post by sabregirl on Sept 24, 2007 22:59:17 GMT
Honestly I didn't build my bard to be a tank I built her to be a bard with good song but some offensive staying power. If I really wanted to build a dex tank to just tank I'd probably pick something else . . . like a shadowdancer, ranger, rogue, even assassin. However my bard did turn out as a very nice tank (probly one of my most stable dexers ever) as well as singer but it's not always easy to get a dex bard to really good tank status without an uber race like shard. Lala I wasn't saying you didn't use your epics I was just saying it was trickier for you to use em and at least with immute timing is everything. But anyway you seemed to be a very helpful party member, aside from the illinois-sized ass. In any case I don't think zilla was ever refused party to the point that everyone said they just HAD to have a real druid and zilla just wasn't good enough. If you had a *real* druid as well so much the better. That's not what so many of the posters are saying about dex bards. They're saying a dex bard is in no way a suitable substitute for a caster bard, which is what I'm calling short sighted and silly. Odd how we managed to do all the first nessus runs with dex bards only. -S
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Post by tempus on Sept 24, 2007 23:37:03 GMT
Just an observation here. The point was made earlier though I dont think it realy played out. Lala your druid was not the in-druid of the time however it could be a tank and thus was never refused a spot in a party. I feel that dexer bards are dexer tanks and my dexer bard can tank as well as an sd or rogue cc class dexer if not better. I may not have the epics but my song and the song of a caster bard have a negligble difference. I can cast healing circle almost as well as a caster bard too. But we dexer bards are being excluded from parties while your druid never was. This is wrong as the dexer bard actually can cover two postions in the party pretty dang well.
Amicus
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Post by cathedralmaster on Sept 24, 2007 23:40:15 GMT
Odd how we managed to do all the first nessus runs with dex bards only. The first time we wiped before the coil and the second time the snakes weren't working right (or some such). There were also issues with asmodeus lair such as the fact we could walk rather than portal in the first time we did it, being able to hide behind a particular stack of gold that was later blocked and has since been removed, and the whole deal with asmodeus spawning more. Seriously, the run is so different now that comparing it to the first time or two that we did it is no longer very applicable.
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