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Post by simpetar on Jul 26, 2021 15:18:00 GMT
One really big difference is that smiting is no longer viable for a lash, so that's the main thing that completely breaks this build out-of-the-box. Smiting hasn't changed for the worse either, it actually got better recently (more dice scaling with PLs). Only its relative power shifted (thanks PLs, thanks XRs), and ofc perception. It is hard to justify spending feats on smite where there is so much more to pick from. For instance, this build predates GWF, legendary (and paragon) KD / disarm, legendary (and paragon) weapon specialization, and more. Unitank was a silly concept and Pit Fiend was the scariest enemy you would face (that incidentally takes good cold, hence smites). If you aim at doing hells, this build will still do ok (ish), beyond that, not so much.
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Post by tomaan on Jul 26, 2021 17:53:35 GMT
winnyThere is a version of this build that's a Limbo specialist BUT it assumes double demi and I think level 75+. Even then, the builder admits Smites don't hit too often (I don't have permission to share and wouldn't recommend for you anyway). As chirality and simpetar said, go with one of the lower-tier builds ( shameless plug for the URs!) and "round up". Since you're using a higher tier subrace, you'll have extra feat(s) that you can use on things like (no particular order): -improved sneak attack -great strength -great dex -epic skill focus: listen or taunt (if you have the skill points) (some builds call for extend spell, but I could never get it to work on my BG lash...feel free to experiment) what I like most about this server is that you can build for fun/theme OR maximum utility and still contribute to the party. Follow builds, but don't be afraid to experiment with different feat/skill/level combinations. The test chamber is a GREAT resource, use it and post your ideas in the general build discussion for feedback. Imho, that's the best way to learn the server, as you'll get specific, practical advice you can use right away. Who knows? You may come up with the next community standard for BG-Lash!
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Post by chirality on Jul 26, 2021 23:02:46 GMT
Smiting hasn't changed for the worse either, it actually got better recently (more dice scaling with PLs). Correct. I addressed this in another thread when discussing blackguard builds with this player. I also didn't say it changed for the worse, in my earlier post here. What changed was the implementation of smiting since this build was originally posted. I don't think anyone would claim that smiting changed for the worse--rather the opposite--but the feature did change in regards to the mechanics, which resulted in more of an emphasis on very high Cha for high damage; non-quasi status for the bonus esoteric dice; and an AB that punished high numbers of non-smiting-class levels (such as for a lash, with a 12-ranger-level build such as this receiving an unimpressive smite AB of only 88. The usefulness of smiting under those constraints are debatable, as can be addressed later in this post in response to tomaan's comments, but in my opinion, it does not meet the definition of "viable" when all factors are considered, especially (or most importantly) in light of the intense 25 Cha prereq for great smiting which is disproportionately taxing for a x0 build. It also limits the build choice to Str (as well as severely pigeon-holing epic and legendary feat allocation), whereas I would suggest going for a Dex build. The reasons for this suggestion are that a dex lash is extremely tanky; the desirability of a dex tank in abyss, which would cast the new player's tank in a very favorable light for their cycling, which is an extra boon to help their contribution be more meaningful and give a more satisfying sense of bringing something to the table, rather than being a dragbot, which more likely than not, describes experience they've encountered so far. My hope would be guiding them to building a resilient, reliable, and low-micro-intensity tank that rarely dies, is rarely disabled especially when a bard is present, and can feel as if they're boosting the party's damage even if their own 1h dps isn't impressive. Only its relative power shifted (thanks PLs, thanks XRs), and ofc perception. I'm not sure if the r elative power shifted very much, honestly (I agree that the perception has definitely shifted since 2007, several times even). XR weapons definitely impacted anything relating to damage output, but the change in smiting from 2007-9 (when this thread was last active) to 2010+ was what I was referring to, which was far before PLs and XRs. Smiting enjoyed a bit of a renaissance following the new mechanic, with the cha-scaling dice offering a new and kewl carrot for smiters, with a theoretical ability to deliver massive dps, although this was over time realized to be highly unreliable for non-pure-paladin minismiters, due to the extreme variation in smite dmg with d20s; the dramatic impact of missing or hitting on each touch attack (making it feel very much like gambling, especially when the damage was also a gamble); and the irritating hardwired mechanics of 2 minute timer feature that was easily punished by automisses, possuming, or being amnid); especially after 2h% allowed rapwit 2her to really shine (in hells, primarily). I would say the other main factor in that "renaissance" was fire smite being a moderately-impressive way of delivering high burst fire damage (with high burst fire damage being easily one of the single best things in the mod across all zones), especially when abyss was young and fire being a very strong damage type across the zone, from layers filled with mobs that took fire to princes. I think smiting more or less remained a cool perk that never was able to replace melee damage output entirely, or serve as enough of a damage delivery device to make up for a build that didn't already dish out impressive damage in the first place. It could help make a low-mediocre dps build have more damage output (with the burst nature mostly being a matter of either boosting logger damage without having much important impact across most spawns, or being capable of impacting boss fights/tough random sponges to a noticeable extent, but the curve towards the middle of those two sides was largely flat for non-pure paladin). As well, on that note, we should be careful to make a clear distinction between pure paladin smiters with recharging minismite, capable of delivering far more damage output over the course of a run, consistently and in burst nature to single tough mobs/randoms/paragons/minis, versus other smiters (blackguard, cot, non-pure melee-focused paladins) that lacked the recharging minismite's consistent single-burst output. The former is viewing smiting as a singular build focus that offers both single-target "vanilla smite" damage in melee as well as aoe burst, whereas the latter views smiting as more of a bonus class feature for a Str build--a build that hoping to view the GSmite->GrtStr trade as a way to get aoe smiting "for free" at the cost of 25 base cha, which may be relatively inexpensive, or very expensive (depending on the build, subrace, and demi/reinc status in question). Str Lash falls very much into this latter category. I'd put high-cha paladin cot (rather than dual-melee enhancer splash builds that focus on str, dex, or uni, and don't invest much cha past the gsmite prereq, and has smiter levels for more AB) a bit more toward the "smite focused" side of the spectrum, with fire smite having been regarded as a useful feature at one point, which was considered a strength, again especially in abyss for a time. That perception largely vanished over time, and around the era of 2h%, smiters were most likely eladrin rapwits that had colossal dps in hells and still high dps elsewhere (not top dog-tier, though, due to borderline Listen and rapier as a weapon); non-smite focused paladins and cots that still got a nice dps perk from gsmiters; or, rarely, 1h pure smiters that hoped to capitalize on high-damage minismite+gsmite without being eladrin, and "for fun" utility/hybrid turner/smiter builds that largely hoped to combine as many Cha-based class features into one build as they could. This is why it was mainly the purview of either goofy hybrid smiting/turning builds that never did much damage in the first place, on the one hand, or 2her rapwit midgets that already had a very high melee damage output as 2hers with intense +phys from massive Div Might bonus on the other. The mechanics of the 2010 implementation resulted in a more restrictive build path to benefit the most from smiting (favoring non-quasi builds with low splash levels, and pure paladins the most, with minismite being very strong, despite their lack of the better cold or fire damage options of bg and cot), but with the potential to offer very impressive dps for smiters, assuming that extreme Cha investment and high AB were met. This is the overall shift I was referring to, which I don't think made smiting worse, just different (and again, it's definitely better since last buff package than before). It is hard to justify spending feats on smite where there is so much more to pick from. Right, which is partly why I claimed it is not viable (the negative implications across the rest of the build of hitting 25 Cha and taking all 10 GSmite feats before L41 is the other part of that puzzle). I'm aware of a particular lash build by a particular player that made this choice (and perhaps has been copied by others--not sure), but again, smiting lashes largely have not been a thing, so this is an exception to whatever approaches a "rule" for lash building. The bottom line is that smiting largely amounts to a trap for the majority of builds and toons (especially x0s), and most certainly for a quasiclass like lash that suffers the additional penalty of missing out on the bonus esoteric damage dice on top of missing a large amount of AB in comparison to a standard paladin or bg that aims for higher smiter levels anyway for buff CLs even if they aren't Cha-focused. For instance, this build predates GWF, legendary (and paragon) KD / disarm, legendary (and paragon) weapon specialization, and more. Right. I didn't mention GWF and KD/Disarm, but as touched on above, this build predates the existence of several things (I only specifically mentioned weap spec tree--I wouldn't recommend KD/Disarm for a x0, GWF maaaybe depending on the build route they end up going--aka depending how much mid-70s AB suffers from investing points in offstat [like shooting for 40 Str on a dex build for crit imm/str checks, or shooting 40ish dex on a Str build for dex checks). There is a version of this build that's a Limbo specialist BUT it assumes double demi and I think level 75+. Even then, the builder admits Smites don't hit too often (I don't have permission to share and wouldn't recommend for you anyway). Right. I didn't feel comfortable going into this, given the fact that the build was once posted and then deleted, so it would have been at best a strange discussion or analysis to try sharing with the new player. I don't recall the build in great detail, but I am confident that it would be unsuitable as a recommendation for winny. I think that flatly claiming that smiting isn't viable for a lash was a mistake, but it's close enough to the truth without getting into the performance metrics of a build that is private and custom-tailored to the builder's resources and objectives. I do believe that build/toon is very successful. The low smite AB is clearly a theoretical issue even on paper, and of course any "not high"-Cha smite end up in practice more like a sorc tossing a couple emped freezing spheres every couple minutes, than some big boom that can significantly drain the hp bar of a big crit imm baddie or boss and (or, ideally, multiples) oneshot vulnerable surrounding trash with every use. I imagine that the smiting was included as more of a "I'm going Str anyway and the idea is to squeeze as much dps as I can out of this lash, and investing in the 25 Cha + 10 GSmites doesn't bother me or detract from the build, so I'm definitely going for smiting, even if the AB is middling and the damage per smite is middling--it's still extra damage that works even if some misses occur, and the zones I run are filled with damage sponges with high regen so every little bit helps". I think that makes a lot of sense. In hindsight, I should have went with the wording I initially planned, which was to avoid the claim of smiting not being viable or feasible for a lash, but just touching on how it was a poor choice for winny. At any rate, cheers for mentioning that build/player with firsthand knowledge--I initially wanted to be completely fair and mention that build as an example of smiting being "technically in use" on a lash, but I took the lazy route of sidestepping the topic entirely (without even the build to reference) and making broad claims.
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