The skill master (40 Rogue)

[fragment]

Taking advantage of all the new nifty feats, at the cost of self conceal/some great dex feats (your decision), and the 4th attack.

Chose a subrace you like. See that you have high dex and con, int should be 14 at least. All attributes should be on even values after subrace edits.Dwarf - Derzaggon should work as good as the UR subrace, you need to take a great dex feat instead of blind fight, with the same distribution of attributes.

"Atomie" (secret UltraRare subrace) - requires Halfling (adds wings)
DEX +3, WIS -2, INT +2, CHA +2, +5 pick pocket, increased base movement rate - very fast, able to walk on quicksand, speaks Animal, speaks Sylvan

"Dwarf - Derrzagon"- requires Dwarf
DEX +2, INT +2, WIS -2, CHR -2, SR18, free feats: Blind Fight & Keen Sense, resist acid 5/- resist fire 5/-, speaks Undercommon


Attributes Atomie - Derrzaggon

Str 6 / 9
Dex 17 (20) / 17 (19)
Con 18
Wis 8 (6)
Int 14 (16)
Cha 8 (10) / 8 (6)


Skills: disable trap, discipline (CC), hide, open lock, parry, pick pocket, search, tumble, umd

Optional skills: listen, bluff, craft armor, craft weapon - you get oodles more skill points in LL


All levels are rogue levels.
All ability increases go into DEX.

Feats *marked are class feats.

1 strong soul
3 weapon finesse
6 shield proficiency
9 exotic weapon proficiency
10 *improved evasion
12 weapon focus (kukri)
13 *defensive roll
15 toughness
16 *slippery mind
18 iron will
19 *crippling strike
21 epic weapon focus (kukri)
24 blind fight/great dex, *epic dodge
27 improved crit (kukri)
28 *epic skill focus disable trap
30 epic skill focus search
32 *skill mastery
33 armor skin
36 epic fort, *opportunist

without SC:
39 epic prowess/epic will
40 *epic skill focus discipline

with SC:
39 epic skill focus discipline
40 *self conceal 1

Legendary: hardened soul, legendary weapon focus (kukri), great dex 1, 2, 3, 4 or self conceal 2, 3, 4, 5, LL will

Saves @40: 26f, 34r, 18w
Saves @60: 62, 69, 61

EDIT corrected as suggested, and added esf discipline
EDIT added the self conceal option

[Lythe Featherblade]

when you can have 70% hard conceal, why give it up?

I don't see shield proficiency, you'll need to grab that, and you'll only hit 131 ac when you do, without conceal as a dexer that's not going to be fun

I think even before hardcore it was determined that self conceal was worth the 2-3 ac that got dropped when you couldn't take great dexes, now you want it even more

[stonewarrior]

Going pure rogue makes it very difficult to fit Self Conceal. With a few pieces of BUR gear I am able to hit 137 AC going pure. Though that is wearing a Spider Ring for the Shield proficiency (need a pandect).

Also, having talked to a few about self conceal I could not see a real compelling reason to try and ift it in going pure. But that's just me...

I would consider Craft Armor and Craft Weapon for the AC / AB bonuses.

I am also not taking Hide and will try for Craft Trap / Set Trap to see how the are.

[fragment]

Thanks, corrected as suggested. I also lost epic skill focus discipline somewhere on the way - I turned around and picked it up

[nathyrra]

Heya guys! I have a doubt: a dwarf can wield a rapier with no restrictions? If so, u could use rapier instead of kukri, in which case u would free another feat (exotic)... And how this pandect works? There are other items in the game that give shield proficiency, making the shield feat dispensable either...

Hugs, Nath.

[tyranlthixis]

Rapier's would be a good option if you didn't want to spend the extra feat. Personally I would go with whatever weapon I had the most of.

Also, the pandect is a decent option. Keep in mind that you'll have to do enough Minaros runs to get one to pop and to win one, which may be an unrealistic goal for some people. Another option would be to rely on the use of items that you would wear as a permanent part of your gear set up. For example..

www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amulet_of_Eramus

Again you'd have to get your hands on one such item but items tend to be easier to come by via trade.

Tyran

[fragment]

nathyrra said:

Heya guys! I have a doubt: a dwarf can wield a rapier with no restrictions? If so, u could use rapier instead of kukri, in which case u would free another feat (exotic)... And how this pandect works? There are other items in the game that give shield proficiency, making the shield feat dispensable either...

Hugs, Nath.

Not sure what a light weapon is, but I'd think a rapier is not a light weapon for a dwarf (medium character size wielding medium weapon). Crippling strike and opportunist require the use of a light weapon. That's why I specified kukri, to be sure . Hand axe (small) should work for a dwarf.

Regards!

[chirikov]

rapier is a special case weapon, as despite its medium size it can be finessed

it still gets medium weapon penalties when dual wielding tho

[nathyrra]

Ah kk, ty.
Hmm, in that case we can choose short swords, as they have the same dmg and crit range and dmg type of Rapiers, but are small weapons, and thus light weapons for a Derrzagon. Kukri is tiny weapon, needs a feat, has less dmg, and does slash dmg, and Rapier and short swords does Piercing dmg. Im particularly fond of piercing since I (personal speculation) think there are less monsters that have immunity/resistance (or those that do, have less immunity/resistance) to it.

Nath.

[Grogbot]

Hey hey

There are a couple of alternatives to this that are worth chatting about.

First trying a human subby, even an open subby like Air Genasi, gives an extra feat which would allow, say, Bullheaded and then later LSA:Discipline.

Dropping Blindfight (for those non-Derrzagon) and splurging on listen gives you prety much the same Offensive ability (still nasty in defense though).

Do you need all of Strong Soul, Iron Will, Epic Fort, Hardened soul and LL Will? Will Strong + Hardened Soul suffice?

If you're worried about the extra attack, perhaps consider using the non-LL save feats to pick up the three 2nd weapon feats.

Also, if you start with 18 INT you get better benefit from the new rogue feats. Going this path both your search and Disable Trap are better, so you might want to free up ESF:DT as well.

Grog

[Grogbot]

grogbot said:

Do you need all of Strong Soul, Iron Will, Epic Fort, Hardened soul and LL Will? Will Strong + Hardened Soul suffice?

In answer to my own question ... No, Hardened Soul alone with its +5 WILL/FORT will not suffice for a pure rogue. A PT Air Genasi built along these lines will have 18/16 naked saves at L40, and even with +5 ledgendary levels, +5 from LL:hardened soul, +6 from item STAT boosts and +20 from items SAVE boosts, this comes in at and additional +31, or +47/+49. Ouch ouch ouch.

So Iron Will & Great Fort plus their ledgendary equivalents is probably needed. Yikes.

Grog-"Back to the drawing board"

[wnxhalfwingseen]

Well you COULD just sacrifice 4 of your great dex feats ( as a pure rogue gets 4 dex in LL's anyway ) for these feats. ^^

[Grogbot]

fragment said:

Saves @40: 26f, 34r, 18w
Saves @60: 62, 69, 61

I'm going insane. How do you get those saves at L40 and L60?

Rogue has FRW saves of 6/12/6 at L20.
If you add +10 for epic levels then the FORT & WILL saves become 6+10=16 at L40.

WILL
Starting with base 16 at 40, subtract 2 for 6 WIS and you get 14 WILL.
Iron Will +2 and this makes 16.
Epic will (on the non-SC path) is another +4 and this makes 20/24.

So WILL at 40 should be 20 (or 24 with Epic Will)

LL gives +5 LL, +5 for Hardened Soul, +7 for LL WILL, +6 for item STAT boosts and +20 from item SAVE boosts making another +38, for a save of +58/62 WILL at 60.

FORT
Starting with base 16 at 40, add in +4 for 18 CON and you get 20 FORT.
Epic Fort is +4 and this makes 24.

So FORT at 40 should be 24.

LL gives +5 LL, +5 for Hardened Soul, +6 for item STAT boosts and +20 from item SAVE boosts making another +31, for a save of 24+31 = 55 FORT at 60.

So by my hopefully misguided calculation (and ignoring Relfex here), we see:

Saves @40: 24f, 20w
Saves @60: 55f, 58w with Self Conceal, 62w without

Can someone show me where I'm doing this wrong? Even with the extra save feats I'm still coming up short for Will if i want Self Conceal. And Fort is always short

Grog

[chainlink]

LL gives +5 LL, +5 for Hardened Soul, +6 for item STAT boosts and +20 from item SAVE boosts making another +31
In fact that's actually another 36 not 31.

[wnxhalfwingseen]

Well i say screw WIll as if you have 56 Will with a DC of 67 ( correct me if there is any higher ) you have a 25% chance of failure with 62 will and with 56 Will its 30.25% Chance of failure ( if slippery mind ) so if you can manage 56 or 57 you get the same chance with a DC 67 exactly with 57 and 56 is 5.25% more. However if the DC is lowered to 60 then its 5% chance of failure with 62 and 2.25% with 57 will. i dont see the problem ^^ in fact with a DC of 60 you only need 56 will or 55 if you dun mind a 1% more chance.

^^

Slippery mind allows you to skimp on Will a bit ^^.