|
Post by ewvastano on May 25, 2008 9:01:31 GMT
would just like to say thanx for this build yomi i used it as a base for my battletank wich is now 4x demi and heading to 5x
|
|
|
Post by Naeblis on Dec 28, 2009 15:26:44 GMT
Would like to know if this remains a viable build in hells for a DD/RDD since the OP was last editted quite some time ago.
|
|
|
Post by bort on Dec 28, 2009 17:25:59 GMT
Looks pretty solid still. There are some concentration checks in hells (and elsewhere) that you may want to be prepared for though... the AB and AC aren't exactly tight on this build though so you could ditch CrA/CrW and take concentration instead?
|
|
|
Post by Naeblis on Dec 28, 2009 17:39:57 GMT
Thanks for the quick response Bort, was also wondering if there was some optimization that could be adhered to by swinging the class level spread?
|
|
|
Post by bort on Dec 28, 2009 18:15:56 GMT
I haven't looked at this build specifically, but the main considerations for swapping levelling order around would be: Pre-epic bab (improves overall ab) Skill dumps (i.e. bard:umd/tumble) Saves (class combo pre-epic affects saves) Prestige class bab/feat/skill requirements (i.e. you need 8 lore for RDD, and dodge, toughness and 7 bab for DD).
I wouldn't imagine there'd be any huge advantage to swapping the order around though...if there was a significantly better way to build a Tin Can, Claus and Yomi would most likely have figured it out by now (the build is quite an old one).
edit: Just re-read your question - if you were asking if a different combination of Bard/Rdd/DD would be better (such as more DD) i think the answer is probably 'no'. You can trade 40-50% of the unresistable RDD immunity for 3/- more DD immunity and -2 STR, but it doesn't really seem worth it imo.
|
|
|
Post by Yomi on Dec 28, 2009 19:16:08 GMT
I took this toon in Min and Phleg last August, and it seemed just fine. Basically same gear as described with nothing new. It's been a surprisingly long lasting toon and is 5x demi now. I'm pretty sure I still haven't used a stat artifact on him. Min logsPhleg logsLooks like Phleg got out of hand with massive party deaths. I think the evade number for the DD is interesting -- he was actually one of the better toons at not getting hit (pretty sure he had displacement non-stop though). Ah -- Elite Orthon Fist killed him 4 times in a row, and a Raja managed to get him while Shadow Shield wasn't up. Those logs make him look decent -- he came in second in damage on a lot of runs. But there are other runs with higher end tanks where he comes in 5th or so. To give an indication of how solid it is in most cases, I spent most of a Cania run dual wielding bastard swords to boost damage a bit. It dropped the AC to something like 110 and dropped all his electric immunity, but most of the time that wasn't a concern. He swapped the shield back on if too many things were focused on him. Unfortunately without any dual weapon feats it hurts AB a lot and only gives one extra attack, but it looked like it gave a small damage boost. It also made it more interesting to play . As for fiddling with the levels, I think for a DD/RDD this is still the best combination. It's been a while, but when I made it I know there were a lot of compelling reasons to go with exactly this level combination, and I don't think anything has changed. There may be better race choices (Maelephant with a large weapon looks interesting). Some of the new weapon feats might be possibilities -- in particular Power Critical and Greater Weapon Focus look interesting and I believe both can be taken pre-epic which allows a lot of flexibility. I still enjoy playing it, and it is a solid strength tank. If you have some gear and experience, a ranger (e.g. dex uni or str uni) or double weapon CoT (e.g. Champion of Sheinja) are better value. There are better Bane Knights, Blackguards, and Paladins floating around, but they seem rare -- I'm not sure if that's player, gear, or build. True unitanks do offer some bonus over this if that's a big concern. I prefer it to RDDs and it'll outdamage most of them. I personally prefer it to barbarians, but I will fully admit a proper barbarian build will pummel it in damage output while maintaining good defense. There are oodles of other nice builds of course.
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on Dec 28, 2009 21:25:52 GMT
I agree with everything that kins said, except potentially about the dual wielding. Depending on the AB-AC difference on the mobs you are attacking, adding a dual weapon with no feats (or even amnizu gloves) can drop your total damage output, because of the drop in AB. This also matters a little more on critable mobs because of the crit confirm additional roll, so the ab drop is compounded.
Also, keep in mind that 100% un-droppable fire immunity is amazing to help make your toon solid, particularly before you have a full gear setup.
-G
|
|
|
Post by Yomi on Dec 29, 2009 19:55:24 GMT
Re dual wielding: in general Gand is probably correct. However I noticed a few times with this toon that the median AB vs. mobs was sometimes 3-5 higher than the other tanks, so dropping it didn't penalize him too much -- he's still higher than most toons. I wonder which would be best for this toon: Normal, Power Attack (-5 AB, +5 damage), or Dual Wield (-6/-10 AB, one extra attack -- or Gloves of the Amnizu for -4/-4). If I remember right I used Power Attack a lot on my WM since he had a silly high AB.
|
|
|
Post by Senaattori on Dec 8, 2010 21:52:49 GMT
Hmm, what would happen if I changed this to: 20 DD/15 RDD/5 Sorc? how would my saves and ab change? as I would rather not change my alignment twice and using sorc I could spend points in Concentration instead of UMD
Edit. Okay, I'm stupid. I would lose tumble using sorc and if I chose 5 bard over 7 bard I couldnt get UMD and Tumble high enough...
|
|
|
Post by Senaattori on Dec 8, 2010 22:41:16 GMT
As I don't have Howler I ported this to Kolyarut:
Koly doesnt have toughness or exotic weapon profiency so had to change feats somewhat to fit exotic wep prof (and tougness) in
"Kolyarut" (secret Beyond UltraRare) - FC: Fighter - STR +5, DEX +5, INT +2, CON +2, CHA -2, WIS -2, free feat: Dodge, free feat: Mobility, free feat: Spring Attack,
speaks Abyssal, speaks Celestial, speaks Infernal
Race: Dwarf Kolyarut (BUR subrace) STR: 16 -> 21 DEX: 15 -> 20 CON: 14 -> 16 WIS: 8 -> 6 INT: 10 -> 12 CHA: 12 -> 10 (dwarf) -> 10 [forced to start this high
All stat points into STR.
"Level progression: 5 Bard, 4 RDD, 1 Bard, 10 DD, 11 RDD, 5 DD, 1 Bard, 3 DD. You will have to change alignment at
level 11 and level 37. You can take the last bard level at any level 37-40 -- I like to take it a little early so I
don't have to worry about alignment when in the middle of Lolth/Immo, but really it doesn't matter as long as it's 37
or later."
Pre-Epic Feats: 1: strong soul for Dauntles via !charedit 3: exotic weapon Proff 6: Iron Will 9: Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword 12: Improved Critical: Bastard Sword 15: Power Attack 18: Cleave
Epic Feats: 21: Great Str 1 24: Great Cleave 27: Overwhelming Critical: Bastard Sword 30: Devastating Critical: Bastard Sword, Armor Skin 33: Great Str 2 35: Epic Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword 36: Great Str 3 39: Great Str 4 40: Epic Prowess
Stats at 40: STR 41, DEX 14, CON 24, WIS 6, INT 14, CHA 10.
Legendary Feats: 42: legendary valor 45: LWF Bastard Sword 48: Power critical/brutal throw/toughness? 51: Legendary Will 54: Great Str 5 57: ESF: Listen 60: LSF: Listen
Final saves would be: Fort: 65 Refl: 61 WIll: 64
And Final HP about 1162
AB should stay the same and so should AC or it may even be bit higher as Koly version has higher Dex
Skill Points: Put 8 points in Lore to allow RDD levels. Max Discipline at all levels. Put points in Tumble at all
Bard levels but only to 35 total. Max UMD at all Bard levels so you can read scrolls. After your last bard level put maximum points into Listen (you'll not have quite enough to max it yet). In Legendary levels you'll max Discipline and Listen, and at about level 44 you'll start getting excess points. Choose one of either Craft Armor (for +1 AC) or Craft Weapon (for +1 AB). Or you could but those points in concentration as this build has relatively high AB and AC
|
|