The Five Clawed Discount (35 rogue/5 DD)

[sabregirl]

Well this is my attempt at a rogue build that takes advantage of some of the new rogue changes which will be upcoming soon. I didn't want to use my one subrace upgrade on my rogue so it's done with Lycan. Especially since their piercing weakness is getting reduced to 10% it should be far more workable. Would also work very well with Half-Kyton or Kolyarut but then you won't look like a cool wolfie.

Pros: Takes advantage of the best of the new rogue changes which give you bonus AB for str, improved crit range on your weapon and a "chance" for an increased crit multiplier. +3 fort and will from 4 preepic DD levels. Lycan's free dodge plus toughness == easy qualification for DD. This build cannot be flanked. Epic dodge, Improved evasion lock opening, trap disarms etc. Oodles of skill points.

Cons: No slippery mind or skill mastery as written, Only get to grt dex 4, skills and rogue feats partly mitigate this. Really feat tight!

Starting Stats
(with dwarf based Lycan)
str- 8
dex- 18 (22)
con- 14 (16)
int- 16
wis- 8
cha- 6 (4)

Build Progression
01: Rogue(1): Strong Soul
02: Rogue(2)
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Rogue(4)
05: Rogue(5)
06: Rogue(6): Toughness
07: Rogue(7)
08: Rogue(8)
09: Rogue(9): Iron Will
10: Rogue(10): Defensive Roll
11: Rogue(11)
12: Rogue(12): Blind Fight
13: Rogue(13): Crippling Strike
14: Dwarven Defender(1)
15: Dwarven Defender(2): Improved Critical: Light Hammer
16: Dwarven Defender(3)
17: Dwarven Defender(4)
18: Rogue(14): Weapon Focus: Light Hammer
19: Rogue(15)
20: Rogue(16): Opportunist
21: Rogue(17): Armor Skin
22: Rogue(18)
23: Rogue(19): Improved Evasion
24: Rogue(20): Great Dexterity I
25: Rogue(21)
26: Rogue(22)
27: Rogue(23): Great Dexterity II
28: Rogue(24): Epic Dodge
29: Rogue(25)
30: Rogue(26): Great Dexterity III
31: Rogue(27)
32: Rogue(28): Self Concealment I
33: Rogue(29): Epic Skill Focus: Disable Trap
34: Rogue(30)
35: Rogue(31)
36: Rogue(32): Great Dexterity IV, Self Concealment II
37: Rogue(33)
38: Rogue(34)
39: Rogue(35): Self Concealment III
40: Dwarven Defender(5)


Legendary Feats
ESF search
Hardened soul
Legendary will
EWF light hammer
LWF light hammer
Self Conceal IV
Self Conceal V


Skills
Max open lock, disarm trap, search, hide, PP, set trap, tumble, umd, craft armor and or craft weapon if possible on rogue levels. Save a few points for disc dumps on DD levels. Don't forget to get 30 hide in time to take self concealment feats.

Comments
Roges are generally incredibly feat tight and this build is no exception. You could easily change some things around to make different choices but this is what I felt was best. I may swap some things around once I start taking LLs with this design.

-S

[Lythe Featherblade]

is there an easy to find list of the rogue changes yet?

[the1kobra]

highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=Tavern&action=display&n=1&thread=4210
First post there is a link to the changes.
Just be prepared to re inc your rogue if there is a change, and if you are an open sub and like dachy blood, you're outta luck. (I think I've already used 5 dragon bloods)
Edit: I decided to list them here.
* Rogue - +1 skill point / 10 rogue class levels in LLs
*Rogue

Upgrade traps from trap makers.

- Crippling Strike - With 30 levels of rogue, the rogue receives +1 to his critical range when using a light weapon and in light or no armor. This does not stack with Overwhelming Critical or Ki Critical; With 35 levels of rogue, the rogue has a (rogue level + 10)% chance of receiving a +1 bonus to his critical multiplier with light weapons when in light or no armor. This does not stack with Devastating Critical or Increased Critical Multiplier; With 40 levels of rogue, the rogue ignores sneak attack immunity against almost all opponents.
- Opportunist - The rogue carefully calculates all attacks in advance. With 25 levels of rogue, the rogue gets to add his BASE Intelligence modifier to all attack rolls with light weapons, to a maximum of ((rogue level - 20) / 5) (capping at +4 with 18 base Intelligence at 40 levels of rogue); In addition, provides +1 AB at 30 levels of rogue, as long as the rogue has at least 12 base Intelligence.
- Skill Mastery - With 21 levels of rogue, all skill penalties in the Hells are lowered to 2/3. With 31 levels of rogue, all skill penalties in the Hells are lowered to 1/3. With 40 levels of rogue, the rogue is completely immune to any effect which would decrease his skills, inside the Hells or elsewhere.
- Slippery Mind - With 30 levels of rogue, provides a reroll on ALL Will saves and not only mind spells.

[flynn01]

Very nice, solid build.

Do you know when the Lycan change will go under effect, and if it'll be retroactive to all existing lycans?

[booboospooki]

I'm considering alternatives to the five DD levels since I'd probably make a rogue that's a gnome base. Five levels of SD (assuming you have a way to get Mobility) means a lower AB, yet retaining Uncanny Dodge. Same with five levels of Barbarian, in which case you do get a better AB progression.

So will either option be a bad idea, or are they viable?

[sabregirl]

Well with the new rogue edits you really don't want to go less than 35 rogue or you start to lose out (unless you go WM). DD is partly there to avoid XP pen, I suppose you could subsitute CoT levels and still avoid the xp pen but it doesn't help much with your abysmal will save. SD doesn't really help too much either and eats too many levels. Barb would net you an xp pen and again doesn't help with will save. Remember that you get uncanny dodge from rogue itself it's the lack of flanking that's specific to DD.

As for Lycan edits I think the answer is very soon and I'm willing to bet it's retroactive since subrace vulns and immunes are reapplied on login.

-S

[chainlink]

Personally I'm going to try a full rogue with no splash using Half-Fiend as you can get some nice benefits from this.

[sabregirl]

Indeed I considered going pure rogue as there some nice bonuses, but on a pure rogue you have to TAKE shield prof and if you want a martial weapon you have to TAKE the proficiency, plus you lose an attack and BAB and your saves are really in the gutter. On something like half fiend you could probably afford to nerf your dex some and still get good AC out of the deal. Plus more easily get int, con etc. etc. On a lycan I figured this sort of build was the best option.

-S

[Besiege]

You could use other subrace by spending some points into Listen and skip Blindfight (get Dodge instead for DD). Just an option.

Could you please explain the "Rogue - +1 skill point / 10 rogue class levels in LLs" system? Do you get 10 more skill points (50 rogue-60 rogue) or 2 points? (50 and 60) Or something else? Thanks.

[Acaos]

besiege said:

You could use other subrace by spending some points into Listen and skip Blindfight (get Dodge instead for DD). Just an option.

Could you please explain the "Rogue - +1 skill point / 10 rogue class levels in LLs" system? Do you get 10 more skill points (50 rogue-60 rogue) or 2 points? (50 and 60) Or something else? Thanks.

14 pre-LL rogue levels = +1 skill point/LL (+20 total)
20 pre-LL rogue levels = +2 skill points/LL (+40 total)
30 pre-LL rogue levels = +3 skill points/LL (+60 total)
40 pre-LL rogue levels = +4 skill points/LL (+80 total)

Acaos

[Besiege]

acaos said:

14 pre-LL rogue levels = +1 skill point/LL (+20 total)
20 pre-LL rogue levels = +2 skill points/LL (+40 total)
30 pre-LL rogue levels = +3 skill points/LL (+60 total)
40 pre-LL rogue levels = +4 skill points/LL (+80 total)

Acaos

Thanks.

As for this build I suppose you will have about 134 AC, 90 AB, 59/72/64 saves. Not sure about your concealment, depends on equipment. Anyway 4% of your hide skill. Lets say you have 100 hide that should be 4 points so 54%? 990 HP. Looks like a nice rogue build .

[blackdeath]

i was thinking of building this, do you think it'd be acceptable to drop 2 dex, and move it to con? this will net you 60 hp and a fort save, at the cost of 1 ab/ac/reflex.

[sabregirl]

I guess I'm a fan of as much AC as possible, if you want to make that choice obviously you're free to do it. It's not something I personally prefer though.

-S