Quasiclass : Hoplite

[bloodwynn]

Something very crude at the moment, but inspired nonetheless by a movie (and History Channel special) I saw this weekend....

Am looking for any and all suggestions please.


Reqs:
Human (just seemed natural)
Male (sorry, but perhaps the Spartan women need their own class?)

Would need Epic fighter class I think, perhaps 1 at least Barb as well, not sure of WM based on the questions below...

Proficient with large shields, spear and shortsword . Other equip would be greaves, helm and I think breastplate.

Requirements would need to be pretty stringent to try and duplicate the 'assessment', training started at youth, true tough love.

Likely high Str, Con reqs (14+?) each, Lawful alignment to reflect their commitment to the group and own standards? Also, prob requires a certain Charisma to be able to lead and influence / bolster the party (12+?)

Benefits:
Not sure if this is implementable (perhaps just by equip) but can you have something like the WM Weapon of Choice on two weapon types (Spear and Sword)? I think they should truly be epic in use of spear and shield, maybe additional attacks when using both together (shield bash, using both ends of spear, etc) but don't really know how to implement something like this. Also, perhaps as long as aspis is equipped, they get Dodge Arrow feat for free?

My thoughts were that they are formidable alone (perhaps phys immun like DD but tall), never retreat (something like barb fury or Dwarven stance ) but their true strength lies in grouping (phalanx).

Grouping Bonuses: % increase to AC, AB, immunes based on group size and then increase bonuses if more than 1 hoplite is in group. Perhaps a bonus to phys immun and AC to the group (phalanx aura?) and then the Hoplite himself get's increase to AB, AC, etc. etc. with group, and bonuses if groups contains more than one Hoplite.

Maybe something scaled like based on the # of HL's in the grp:

Increase to Group Members
1 HLs---- 5% phys immun, +3 AB, +2 to AC, +1 Con
2 HLs---- 15% phys immun, +10 AB, +5 AC, +3 Con
3 HLs---- 35% phys immun, +20 AB, +10 AC, +7 Con (prob too much, but doubt we will have too many of these in same grp)

then for the HL himself based on how many in grp:

Increase to all HL's in grp based on # of grp members

solo------no bonuses (or maybe even neg bonuses?) 3 in grp---- +1 AC, +3 AB, 5% phys immun, +1 Will and Fort Saves 6 in grp---- +3 AC, +7 AB, +10% immun, +3 will and fort saves 10 in grp---- +5 AC, +10 AB, +20% immun, +7 will and fort saves

,



Still very raw, but would be fun to see it (at least it's fun in my head ).

Thanks for any comments!
BloodWynn

[FunkySwerve]

Once you have more concrete suggestions you should post this in the quasiclasses thread in drunken monk, though it may be a page or two from the fron at this point.
Funky

[khaine]

well, I think the sword type would be short, as the sword is really a backup weapon (hoplites (imo) are tehre to be in a group, and to fight like that a long reach is very usefull, and the sword requires close combat and the hoplites can easily get split up, xD.)

I think its a great idea, xD.

xD.

[bloodwynn]

Aye Khaine, I think I read their swords were typically around 60 cm, which is just at the long end of the shortsword.

Updated to reflect.

Thanks!

[archmage]

After seeing 300, at least in the movie, their blades closely resembled scimitars

[cathedralmaster]

The blades hoplites used were reffered to as Xiphos:

www.hellenic-art.com/armour/sword.htm


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiphos (The first three are a Xiphos but the picture comes from a text from 1885)

According to wikipedia, not a very reputable site to be sure, "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor, by George Cameron Stone, has the xiphos being a name used by Homer for a sword. The entry in the book says that the sword had a double-edged blade widest at about two-thirds of its length from the point (so not necessarily as shown in the figure), and ended in a very long point."

[resonance378]

bloodwynn said:

Human (just seemed natural)

Yep.

Male (sorry, but perhaps the Spartan women need their own class?)

Not really, what's good for the gander is good for the goose.

Would need Epic fighter class I think, perhaps 1 at least Barb as well, not sure of WM based on the questions below...
Proficient with large shields, spear and shortsword . Other equip would be greaves, helm and I think breastplate.

Epic Fighter sounds good (L20)
Fighter gets large shield proficiency right? Tower shield?
Focus in Spear and Short Sword is a good idea, fighters get more than enough feats.
Since it's impossible to seperate out greaves/breastplate why not restrict the armor to light.
Perhaps 5 levels of Monk before level 10 since the comparison to being raised as a Spartan is similar to being raised as a fighting monk.
The monk also takes care of your evasion.
So far that's 25 levels used up to achieve quasi... most go for 24-30
Might as well throw in 7 levels of WM since you do mention WM later on.
This way the fighter is forced to use the feats they have for the focuses they need.

Likely high Str, Con reqs (14+?) each, Lawful alignment to reflect their commitment to the group and own standards? Also, prob requires a certain Charisma to be able to lead and influence / bolster the party (12+?)

It's hard to say what would be a good main feat(s) for this Quasi because of the nature and history of the original people.
STR and CON (needed to make a viable fighter) but WIS, INT, CHA because they approached war and leadership like no other.
Given the previous mention of why to take weapon master above this means you need 13 DEX and 13 INT, Dodge, Mobility, Toughness, Expert, Whirlwind (1.69 fix?) and whatever else for weapon master...

Benefits:
Not sure if this is implementable (perhaps just by equip) but can you have something like the WM Weapon of Choice on two weapon types (Spear and Sword)? I think they should truly be epic in use of spear and shield, maybe additional attacks when using both together (shield bash, using both ends of spear, etc) but don't really know how to implement something like this. Also, perhaps as long as aspis is equipped, they get Dodge Arrow feat for free?

Maybe upon achieving the Quasi you could have the character edited to be size large so that they can whield shield and spear if they can't already.

Grouping Bonuses: % increase to AC, AB, immunes based on group size and then increase bonuses if more than 1 hoplite is in group. Perhaps a bonus to phys immun and AC to the group (phalanx aura?) and then the Hoplite himself get's increase to AB, AC, etc. etc. with group, and bonuses if groups contains more than one Hoplite.

Stacking bonuses for the group for having more than one of a certain character class, sound interesting for sure!
Sound challenging to script too...

Maybe something scaled like based on the # of HL's in the grp:
Increase to Group Members
1 HLs---- 5% phys immun, +3 AB, +2 to AC, +1 Con
2 HLs---- 15% phys immun, +10 AB, +5 AC, +3 Con
3 HLs---- 35% phys immun, +20 AB, +10 AC, +7 Con (prob too much, but doubt we will have too many of these in same grp)
then for the HL himself based on how many in grp:
Increase to all HL's in grp based on # of grp members

solo------no bonuses (or maybe even neg bonuses?) 3 in grp---- +1 AC, +3 AB, 5% phys immun, +1 Will and Fort Saves 6 in grp---- +3 AC, +7 AB, +10% immun, +3 will and fort saves 10 in grp---- +5 AC, +10 AB, +20% immun, +7 will and fort saves

Would recommend 5% with +5% per Quasi in group up to 3 ( Total party benefit 15% )

For Group Members - +1, +3, +7 AB, +1, +2, +5AC, and +1, +2, +7 CON (if any of this is actually do-able)
For # of Members in group: Spot on, maybe add INT or WIS score to saves with no cap like Paladin as a Quasi-Feat?

SUMMARY:
If you took the Quasi and built it out to have the following requirments:
Luck of Heros
Weapon Focus: Short Sword AND Spear
Weapon Spec: (Can you spec in more than one?) Short Sword OR Spear
5 Monk before 10
7 WM before 35
Weapon of Choice (Short Sword OR Spear)

Light Armor only (perhaps when class edits are applied the ability to wear medium and heavy could be removed those feats?)

Hope these suggestions help you flesh this out more!

Edit: Formatting

[Ironfang]

EDIT: Apparntly I did not see any posts after Arch's sorry. At least great minds think alike...

Man I love Google and Wikipedia two of the greatest resources of our time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite

The Hoplite was a heavy infantryman that was the central focus of warfare in Ancient Greece. The best known hoplites were the Spartans, who were trained from birth to become magnificent warriors.

Hoplites generally armed themselves shortly before battle because the equipment was so heavy - the total weight of the hoplites' armour was around 50-60 pounds (22-27 kilograms). A hoplite typically had a breastplate, a bronze helmet with cheekplates, as well as greave and other armour, plus a bowl-shaped wooden shield called an aspis which was around 1 meter in diameter. The primary weapon was a spear around 2.7 meters in length called a doru. As this was prone to breaking, most Hoplites also carried a smaller 60 cm thrusting, close combat sword called a xiphos. Less common, but still used was the Greek sabre known as the kopis.

The xiphos (îßöïò) is a double-edged, single-hand sword used by the ancient Greeks. It was a primary battlefield weapon for the Greek armies along with the spear or javelin. The blade was around 60 cm long. The xiphos was good for both cutting and stabbing attacks due to its leaf-shaped blade. It was generally used only when the spear was discarded.

It seems that the Spartans developed a shorter sword, about 30cm long, but otherwise similar to the common hoplite xiphos. This shorter version of the xiphos was useful in the close combat of the Greek warfare and was widely used by all Greeks during and after the Peloponnesian War, as we are shown by art of that period. However the longer hoplite sword never ceased to exist.[citation needed]





Spartan Infantry Officer's Sword (Xiphos)

Spartan Infantry Hoplite Sword (Xiphos)


Spartan Hoplite Infantry Slashing Sword (Kopis)

[gruntgruntson]

Why are people saying light armour?
The Hoplites were Heavy Infantry, and are quoted as wearing breastplate and greaves, with other armour and large helm. In (A)D&D/NWN a breastplate is medium armour. Breastplate, greaves, bracers and helm are at least medium!
Considering the period of the Hoplites, surely they qualify for Heavy armour?

20 Ftr, 5 monk, 7 WM?
I have seen some builds use 5WM, would this be a better minimun requirement?

I like the idea of bonuses for multiple hoplites in a party (trained in fighting as a unit).
Could these bonuses be made to work similar to monk powers, with them only counting Hoplites who have the "right" equipment equiped? (Short sword or spear, shield)

[Ironfang]

gruntgruntson said:

Why are people saying light armour?

Yes another area the movie 300 didn't give a very good historical representation. (Not that it claimed to, what with monsters and all).

[resonance378]

Original poster wanted Quasi restricted to what is a bare minimum of armor pieces.

Quasi-classes are typically based off of some sacrifice for greater gains down the road... so far I don't see any sacrifice other than suggesting Light Armor being the only armor option.

But if heavy armor is a necessity to make the Quasi even playable, then by all means, allow it.

PS: I haven't seen 300

[bloodwynn]

Resonance, thanks for the suggestions. I used most of what you had, but keep me honest in here:

Requirements:

- Human

- Epic Fighter (20 or is that 21 lvls)
- Monk (6 lvls)
- WM (5 lvls) = 5 is min, I know some may also go additional 2 for expanded range on Spear

- Weapon Focus (Spear and Sh. Sword)
- Weapon of Choice (Spear)
- Epic Weapon Focus (Spear)
- Luck of Heroes
- Great Cleave

Restriction:

- Can only wear medium armor (breastplates) or lighter for Phalanx bonuses
- Can only wield Large shield for Phalanx bonuses
- Can only wield Spear or Sh. Sword to gain Phalanx bonuses

Phalanx (grouping) Bonuses:

- For all party members (or within certain range):
1 quasi in grp = +5% phys immun, +1 AC, +3 AB, +1 Con
2 quasi in grp = +10% phys immun, +2 AC, +5 AB, +3 Con
3 quasi in grp = +15% phys immun, +5 AC, +7 AB, +7 Con
( If anymore than 3 in grp, we can figure out something... )

- For Quasi class (when grping with any / within certain proximity)

+5% physical immunity when grpd (with anyone)
3/+ in grp, quasi gets +1 AC, +3 AB, uncapped Str bonus to Will & Fort saves
6/+ in grp, quasi gets +3 AC, +7 AB, uncapped Str bonus to Will & Fort saves
10 in grp, quasi gets +5 AC, +10 AB, uncapped Str bonus to Will & Fort saves


Big Questions:

? Can we make an existing character LARGE after they reach a certain point (Quasi reqs)? If so, then I think that's a great idea Res, otherwise, I think he's a little borked (only being able to hold a Shield OR a Spear and not both).

? Would the Phalanx bonuses be grp or aura (i.e. proximity)? I would prefer to see proximity, but not sure whether that is scriptable). Will let the smart people see if that's do able.


Thanks to Resonance and Eki (and the rest) for the assistance and appreciate any more suggestions / comments,

- BloodWynn

[FunkySwerve]

Still not seeing anything resembling a quasiclass. Check the books or board for the definition.
Funky