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Post by darc on Jan 19, 2010 17:46:09 GMT
I'm having a hard time finding a use for this race. Even the favoured classes are much more durable with most other sub races. I know there should be trade offs for specializing in a high stat (like STR) but the negatives on this race are really profound given how important skills and saves are on HG. This is a Secret race that gives a net -1 to stats and a penalizing Special (Slow). Overall stats are below: +5 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA The CHA penalty makes it a poor choice for several tank splashes (RDD, Paladin, BG) that would help with durability. The INT penalty make it undesirable for any build that needs skills to offset deficiencies (like needing AC or AB or crit immune). SUGGESTIONS (choose one or mix and match if you think it's really that under powered): 1) give it Power Attack to free up a feat for saves on builds that pursue Overwhelming/Dev crit 2) give it Cleave to entice BG splash or free up a feat for saves 3) +5 (or 10) bonus to Intimidate/taunt/discipline, frees up skill points 4) Legendary Skill focus Intimidate 5) STR bonus increase to +5, frees up stat points to raise skills or saves Oddly reducing the stat penalties by 1 or 2 (even 1 point each) doesn't affect the build choices as you still wouldn't sink points into the worst stats (INT and CHA). Dropping the dex penalty would open up some choices but that doesn't fit with Ogres. EDIT: possible battle cleric material but starved for skills on an already skill challenged build.
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Post by uncanny on Jan 20, 2010 16:57:14 GMT
Looking at HOgre, you get a +5 to overall stats, with an added negative attribute (slow) and -6 stats. Looking at it's closest neighbor, Mino. Suffers -4 cha and -2 dex, which is survivable given the human base. Gains +4 str, +2 wis and adds power attack, and human so very versatile class wise. So +6 and -6 respectively, along with a bonus feat which helps towards several goodies (dev crit, wm come to mind)
Seems like a very poor race?
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Post by Torin on Jan 20, 2010 18:54:58 GMT
I've seen only 1 Half-Ogre here on HG since I'm hooked (about 3 years now)
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Post by tyranlthixis on Jan 20, 2010 19:46:59 GMT
You could make a decent barbarian with it. Having said that Gnoll + uroblood is a superior choice to Half Ogre in every way and in almost every circumstances. It probably needs some help as a race tbh.
Having said that there is at least one demi Half Ogre. I am pretty sure he played it for style points though rather than a desire to play a race with innate slowness and suboptimal stats.
Tyranlthixis
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Post by holes573 on Jan 20, 2010 22:16:35 GMT
Guilty. I believe my Half-Ogre is the only demi and I think I've seen only one other in many years.
It has made a reasonable barbarian. I really don't mind the slowness and I don't find the stats debilitating for a secret race. For a barbarian, Cha is a throw away, Dex is relatively unimportant because I wear plate, It would be nice to have a bit more in Int (for skill points) and Wis (for will save), but both can be worked around.
For a secret race, getting +5 to Str and +2 Con is wonderful for a strength build. So, I don't think it needs fixing. If any of the other stats were raised 1 point, or slowness is taken away, it wouldn't matter much to the usefullness of the race.
And yes, I have not reincarnated him to a UR or BUR race because I like having a secret race demi. The very fact that I have him that far (Ely tag, needs Nessus for Double Demi) without any real struggles attests to the viability of the race.
-Holes
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Post by Shakua on Jan 22, 2010 20:39:41 GMT
This does not attest the viability of the race, when gear and player skill affects a much more larger outcome
or least thats my opinion, considering i have 3 doppelgangers a class they should not be (str tank, cot and rogue)
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Post by uncanny on Jan 22, 2010 21:00:50 GMT
Jeez, the first open race demi was a kobold (sorcerer? I forget, kobra has a few).
Skill, equipment and good parties negate a lot of issues with warrior types, so that doesn't impress me at all. The reason we're here though, is that the race is not aligned with it's peers in the Secret category.
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Post by Shakua on Jan 22, 2010 21:40:06 GMT
i was just agreeing that the sub need a fix, no need to jump
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Post by holes573 on Jan 23, 2010 8:00:53 GMT
My point was that I don't think the race is so challenged compared to other races.
As I noted, the negatives are really not that bad if this a basic tank build. Certainly if you want to make another build, Half-ogre isn't for you. For a barbarian or fighter, half-ogre is a good secret choice. For these builds, str and con are the key attributes. There aren't any other secret races that come close to the +7 stats that half-ogre gives you in these. Another way to think about that is that this essentially gives for a free Great Strength feat or two.
Yes, it's not human, but you get a free Blooded (making up for the one fewer feat at Level 1) and Toughness, both important feats for barbs and fighters.
And what's the downside for that? Slowness, which is really not that big of a deal, needing to spend points on Int and needing to get save feats. But filling in these types of holes is common with secret races.
Let's compare it to others. As noted, the only real competitor for a strength build in a secret race iis minotaur. In the two key attributes of str and con, minotaur has +4, compared to half-ogre's +7. +2 in wis is OK in minotaur, but less useful, imo, than points in str and con. The only +7 (str+con) open race is Troll, which has some very significant vulnerabilities associated with it. In terms of UR races, the best three on these two abilities are Battlerager (+9), One-eyed (+7) and Stinger (+6). Of course, the UR races have fewer other negatives and a few more other positives. But, the point is that Half-ogres are getting UR-like pluses in the key attributes without debilitating negatives.
-Holes
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Post by Shakua on Jan 23, 2010 15:39:17 GMT
i would find -4 int for a tank quite debilitating though, since half ogre was made, many skills have "seem" to become very necessary as key survival , and many new skills added since then all my tanks run anywhere from +14 int(only if half elf) to 22+ as base!
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Post by darc on Jan 24, 2010 3:42:32 GMT
-The -4 INT is debilitating given how important skills are now -A pure barbarian build with no points in INT gets 1 skill pointper level -Spending points on INT to negate the penalty negates the benefits of the +5 STR (how did you come up with +7?) -Spending points on INT to get a skill increase moves an already sub-par build into completely inferior status -there are several free race barb/fighter builds that surpass this race for durability and are even on par for ab
I really like the idea of this subrace and I don't mind playing races and builds that aren't optimized (I have a Bugbear Battle Cleric, a Goblin Rogue and an Orc Figher/HS) but this race is broken and has no viability past LL and becomes uncompetative after lvl 20.
EDIT: I'm going to slightly rework my build and give it another shot. I still think that this races best class barb or fighter can be done better by free races but I think I could make a smarter build than I did with too many points in DEX and not enough in INT.
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Post by arek on Jan 24, 2010 5:46:12 GMT
5 bonus str + 2 bonus con == +7 str+con bonus is what he indicated. In any case, I'm kinda in agreement with you - this race needs a tweak if it's to be better than certain open subraces. Perhaps drop the CON bonus and grant another point or 2 of STR?
--Arek
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Post by holes573 on Jan 24, 2010 8:45:17 GMT
I really like the idea of this subrace and I don't mind playing races and builds that aren't optimized (I have a Bugbear Battle Cleric, a Goblin Rogue and an Orc Figher/HS) but this race is broken and has no viability past LL and becomes uncompetative after lvl 20. Do you think there is just the smallest chance that this is an overstatement? Not only are your "no viability" and "uncompetative" (sic) claims patently false (I have a demi half-ogre that plays quite well, thank you), the crux of your argument appears to be the fact that Int is low. Let's look at how this plays out in actual stats. Similar builds for Half-ogre and Minotaur (both secret) are below following creation. Half-Ogre Str 22 Dex 7 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 4 Minotaur Str 22 Dex 8 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 6 The Minotaur build gets +1 to Will and Reflex saves and one extra skill to max out (for the extra Int). The Half-Ogre build gets a free feat (Toughness) and essentially saves another (Great Con) that Minotaur would need to even out Con. Two feats seems to me to be a reasonable trade off for a skill and two +1's in saves. But, I think your argument about not being viable hinges on the need for more skills. Granted skills are important, but which skill exactly is going to turn this Half-Ogre build from unplayable to playable? What essential skills is the Half-Ogre build missing, beyond Discipline, Intimidate and Tumble? I'd probably pick one of Craft Armor or Weapon for the fourth skill (at 12 Int) and miss the other one (by not having 14 Int). So, I think your argument rests on the fact that the +1 in either ab or ac and the +1 to Will and Reflex saves is so much better than two feats that the Half-Ogre is not viable. That isn't how I see it. Yes, there is an open race in a posted Barbarian build (Gnoll). Gnoll does get good stats in Str and Con (+3 and +3), but it can't get as high in Str at creation (max 21), and it has one fewer feat (Toughness) than Half-Ogre. I certainly do not believe this race is "broken." That said, while I believe it is a good secret race, few others have used it. So, a small tweak might encourage this. (I actually think the tweak would be better for Half-Orcs in general - it doesn't seem many use One-Eyed or Jugg either.) -Holes
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Post by uncanny on Jan 24, 2010 11:30:32 GMT
The Minotaur build gets +1 to Will and Reflex saves and one extra skill to max out (for the extra Int). The Half-Ogre build gets a free feat (Toughness) and essentially saves another (Great Con) that Minotaur would need to even out Con. Two feats seems to me to be a reasonable trade off for a skill and two +1's in saves. "Half-Ogre" (secret; changes Appearance) - FCs: Fighter, Barbarian - STR +3, CON +2, DEX -2, INT -2, CHA -2, increases character size to large, reduced base movement rate - slow, speaks Ogre I don't see any toughness. I don't see any Great Con, though I probably missed it somewhere. Toughness and BLOODED though, are part of the base race abilities, given to balance the human aspect (in other words, not part of the secret bonus). When we balance Minotaur (which, by the way is pretty much given to you free of charge as a set drop) against it there is no comparison. "Minotaur" (secret; changes Appearance) - FC: Fighter / BC: Cleric - STR +4, DEX -2, WIS +2, CHA -4, free feat: Power Attack, increases character size to large, speaks Minotaur Like it or not, that is +5 stats vs +6 stats with a feat; for -6 stats to each and a negative effect on the HO to boot. Mino gets additionally Power Attack for free, and does not suffer Int at all (or slowless); meaning your skills are happily intact. Plus, you get a free feat that is pivotal to several types of tank and muscleman.
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Post by darc on Jan 24, 2010 16:32:22 GMT
Do you think there is just the smallest chance that this is an overstatement? Yeah, I slept on it and decided I was just disappointed by my first build. I compromised in the wrong places. I still think it's weak for it's tier but a better build is possible than what I chose. Thanks for all the analysis.
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