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Post by Shakua on Jan 24, 2010 23:03:25 GMT
just because its demi dont mean its viable , once again, player skill and gear would mean a lot even if there was a sub that gave -2 to all stats , it would still be playable by *somebody* but it needs some type of tweak and getting a tweak here would open the doorway for other subs that may need a fix and..upgradable subs
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 25, 2010 3:44:26 GMT
just because its demi dont mean its viable Actually, that's EXACTLY what it means, as far as I can tell. The sub is able to handle the toughest areas of the mod - it is a viable subrace for end-of-game. Of course, I think that's true of all subs, so it doesn't mean much (and any other construction of the somewhat ambiguous 'viable' would be even more meaningless, I think). The question to be asked is whether its competitive with other subs of like rarity. Comparing it only to minotaur isn't particularly convincing, however, because all it demonstrates is a disparity between the two subs - it doesn't rule out the possibility that minotaur deviates upward from the norm, instead of half-ogre deviating downwards. A more comprehensive analysis is needed. We are open to making tweaks, however, whether or not we do so in this case - there's no need to 'open' any door of tweakage. In general, players just fail to make a convincing case, in cases where no action is taken. Funky
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Post by Shakua on Jan 25, 2010 5:44:40 GMT
i originaly had something really long typed out, then realize i was just repeating the same first sentence you had..
so a comparison from gnoll players might be better, they seem to be common
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Post by darc on Jan 25, 2010 17:13:12 GMT
The question to be asked is whether its competitive with other subs of like rarity...A more comprehensive analysis is needed. Agreed, and the Secret race tier is already stratified based on potency of the item needed to obtain them. The more potent the item the better the Secret race, so then just looking at races in the same sub tier: Skulk -2 net stats, Dark vision, Self Conceal I, +2 MS/Hide Kender +0 net stats, Aura of Courage, Stealthy, +5 Dis/OL/PP/Srch/Set/Taunt Githyanki +2 net stats, Dark Vision, SR 5+lvl Githzerai +0 net stats, Armor Skin Half-Ogre -1 net stats, Slow Two races have negative net stats (one is HO), two have a net 0 and one has a net increase. Only HO doesn't have a free feat, or even free skill points.
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Post by arek on Jan 26, 2010 0:08:14 GMT
Something that comes to mind here is that Half-Ogre is also large, which may be (or have at one time been) considered to be equivalent in and of itself to the feats and stats provided by other races. Remember: Half-Ogre is, iirc, one of only 4 large races that aren't UR or higher (the others being Drider, Troll, and Minotaur).
--Arek
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Post by holes573 on Jan 26, 2010 20:42:31 GMT
The question to be asked is whether its competitive with other subs of like rarity...A more comprehensive analysis is needed. Agreed, and the Secret race tier is already stratified based on potency of the item needed to obtain them. The more potent the item the better the Secret race, so then just looking at races in the same sub tier: Skulk -2 net stats, Dark vision, Self Conceal I, +2 MS/Hide Kender +0 net stats, Aura of Courage, Stealthy, +5 Dis/OL/PP/Srch/Set/Taunt Githyanki +2 net stats, Dark Vision, SR 5+lvl Githzerai +0 net stats, Armor Skin Half-Ogre -1 net stats, Slow Two races have negative net stats (one is HO), two have a net 0 and one has a net increase. Only HO doesn't have a free feat, or even free skill points. To be directly comparable, though, those subraces need to take into account their race attributes. I've added them below: Skulk -2 net stats, Dark vision, Self Conceal I, +2 MS/Hide, Elf cross-class skill raising Kender +0 net stats, Aura of Courage, Stealthy, +5, Dis/OL/PP/Srch/Set/Taunt, Halfling LL Luck availability Githyanki +2 net stats, Dark Vision, SR 5+lvl, Human extra lvl 1 feat Githzerai +0 net stats, Armor Skin, Human extra lvl 1 feat Half-Ogre -1 net stats, Slow, Half-Orc Toughness and Blooded free When you add those race attributes, Half-Ogre doesn't look quite so bad. In my view, it is at a slight disadvantage, but not huge. However, let's look at things from the perspective of choices for a barbarian build, which is Half-Ogre's prime purpose. I've given below the best choices at the open, secret and UR subrace levels, including thier race attributes. Open Subrace"Orc" - STR +3, CON +2, INT -4, WIS -1, CHA -2, Half-Orc Toughness and Blooded free "Bugbear" - STR +2, DEX +2, CON +2, INT -3, CHA -3, Human extra feat at lvl 1 "Gnoll" - FCs: Fighter, Barbarian / BC: Ranger - STR +3, CON +3, INT -2, WIS -2, CHA -2, Human extra feat at lvl 1 "Lizardfolk" - FCs: Fighter, Ranger / BC: Druid - STR +2, CON +2, INT -2, CHA -2, breathes water, Human extra feat at lvl 1 Secret Subrace"Half-Ogre" - STR +5, CON +2, DEX -2, INT -4, CHA -4, increases character size to large, reduced base movement rate - slow, Half-Orc Toughness and Blooded free "Minotaur" - STR +4, DEX -2, WIS +2, CHA -4, free feat: Power Attack, increases character size to large, Human extra feat at lvl 1 UR Subraces"Battlerager" - STR +4, CON +5, INT -2, CHA -5, +5 intimidate, free feat: Dodge, free feat: Toughness, Dwarf Bullheaded free "One-Eyed" - STR +4, CON +3, INT -2, WIS +3, CHA -4, free feat: Cleave, +10 hide, +10 move silently, +10 intimidate, Half-Ogre Toughness and Blooded free "Stinger" - STR +4, DEX +2, CON +2, WIS -2, CHA -2, free feat: Spring Attack, increased base movement rate - fast, able to walk on quicksand, increases character size to large, Human extra feat at lvl 1 As I have argued previously, for a barbarian, CHA is a throw-away attribute and there is some (but limited) value in DEX, WIS and INT. So, a simple summing up of the pluses and minuses is not appropiate (for example, any barbarian would easily trade another STR or CON for one less CHA). The true value of a subrace for barbarian comes in STR, CON and feats (with slight value in DEX, WIS and INT). When looked at this way, Half-Ogre comes close to, but may be slightly behind Minotaur (see above discussion). But, neither one is particularly strong in the context of the other levels. Compared to the open subrace of Gnoll, Half-Ogre does have +2 STR and one extra feat (Toughness), but it suffers -1 CON. And, compared to Orc, Half-Ogre has +2 STR, but -2 DEX. In my opinion, Half-Orge represents only a small improvement over the open subrace alternatives. But then look at the jump from Half-Ogre to UR subrces. Compared to Battlerager, Half-Ogre is +1 STR, but -3 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT and -5 intimidate. Compared to One-Eyed, Half Ogre is +1 STR, but -1 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT, -3 WIS, minus one feat (Cleave) and -10 each in hide/move silently/intimidate. So, Half-Ogre falls in the middle between open and UR subraces, which it should. But, imo, the difference between it and open subraces is small and the difference between it and UR subraces is large. In essence, would a player really bother to go through the work of getting the Half-Ogre tag rather than just use a slightly less useful open race? I again come to the conclusion that Half-Ogre isn't broken, but it might use a small bump to reward players for going through the steps involved with securing the Half-Ogre tag. That could involve adding 1-2 points to INT, adding +10 to intimidate, adding one extra Greater Rage per rest or some other mild improvement. -Holes
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Post by uncanny on Jan 27, 2010 13:41:04 GMT
just because its demi dont mean its viable Actually, that's EXACTLY what it means, as far as I can tell. I'm reminded of a Kobold Sorcerer that made it to 5x Demi. That's a whole tier backwards to Open Race. On top of which its probably the worst race with cha bonus to use.. Making any race/build/etc into demi does not mean it's fine; but it does mean the player knows their way around the build and the area. A better and more accurate read would be, how many people out there use this race? Not many, if this thread (and the vets replying to it) are to be believed.
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Post by gandoron on Jan 27, 2010 14:48:44 GMT
Or it means that they were could have been essentially drug, providing less value to the party than they should have given their role. Nessus can be done with 8 or maybe even 7 people, but those people need to have their act together and know what to do. And there is a certain amount of luck when it comes to spawns.
Player power has increased incrementally with the overall increase of demi, gear upgrades (including +14 and master augs), and there has been a decrease in hell pens to dodge AC (thought this really just made up for the AC decrease in bard song). However I think in general ASMO has gotten stronger and harder. Mediocre players and tanks don't cut it. Everyone needs to do damage, including clerics and druids.
There are still a few ace in the holes to make it easier, but def not a sure thing. On sunday, we wiped on the 3rd form with a dsm and dragon shifter in party. A number of effective methods like double weapon builds, Bigby 8, brands, evards, soak changes to shifter spikes, etc, have all been significantly reduced in effectiveness. So just because a low prim stat open subby build made demi, didn't mean he was pulling his own weight.
In fact I would be very interested to see a 10 char open race build non-demi group defeat asmo, even with +14 and aug'd items.
-G
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Post by kaezar on Jan 27, 2010 16:19:50 GMT
There I disagree Gand. Badly
Yes, an open subby char may not be pulling his weight. But a bur subby one can NOT be pulling his weight just as easily.
I happen to have demied my *pixie* wizard with Kobra's sorcerer once, and let me tell you, we *both* pulled our weight very well. In fact, our combined damage was a trace below 50% of party damage on asmo. And that was before CD was nerfed on asmo.
What you have to remember is that from a +2 subrace such as kobold and a radiance genasi the difference is +2 to DC, given the same gear and demi iterations. It makes a difference, yes, but it is not a deal breaker. If you consider spells like orbs and fists, it is +1 to ab. Even less significant.
Or if you look at it another way, it is exactly the same difference between a demix2+ character and a immo character. Are you going to say all characters get dragged until they are demix2 as well?
Almost as significant as the score is the loss in feats. Which is not really a lot. Most bur subbies get 3 feats, or 2 feats + 1 ability. That's, if the feats are all useful, one school at epic for a caster. Or 2 normal and 1 epic feat for a tank. Not a deal breaker.
So "viability" is a slippery slope on this case. A character with -2 to all abilities is viable? Certainly. But is it fun to play? That's another question altogether. Imo, what makes the most difference between the subbies is the combination of bonus+feats, with some influence of bonus skills and base races. Appearance and a certain coolness factor also help.
BTW, I was on the party that demied the aforementioned barbarian half-ogre. And yes, it contributed to the party victory. I agree, though, that the subby could use a face-lift, if for nothing else, because I'd like to see more half-ogres around. Animation is fun as hell.
Take care Kaezar
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Post by gandoron on Jan 27, 2010 17:13:11 GMT
There are a massive number of factors that contribute to the effectiveness of a character, play ability, knowing how to use the character and knowing what to do in a particular situation (what spells to mem/use, which mobs to target, etc) probably matter most than anything else.
I did not mean to imply that this particular toon was completely drug, just that you are "less" effective with a sub-optimal subrace. I still think my initial toon open race arctic dwarf "Tin Can" build. Of course the Tin Can is not an extremely high-damage tank (though Kins can supply some high damage logs), and when I reinc'd with Howler it was definitely improved (though losing dodge from Uro blood was annoying). I believe DC based toons are hit the worse by using non 6-base races.
If we only focus on one parameter at a time (ala Scientific Method), using a sub-optimal race will make you less effective, potentially decreasing your usefulness to the party and increasing the likelihood that you are "dragged".
In response to the demi question. I do think that 2x demi toons are stronger and more valuable than immo toons. Of course, increasing your demi by 2 also increases the demi count potentially making the run more difficult (Hells only, potentially abyss, who knows), as anyone who's had a Sup/Elite Firstborn on the asmo spawn can attest to. In contrast, moving from an open to bur sub only increases your power, not the difficulty of the run.
Of course, with increased difficulty comes potentially for more/better loot, but that is not the point under discussion atm.
-G
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Post by kaezar on Jan 27, 2010 18:12:20 GMT
Less effective than with a +6 character, I can agree - even because it is obvious. It is on the "drag" thing I disagree.
Yes, maybe you'll have to use a little different spell mix. Depend a bit more on greater restore, or rest more. Take a few spells more to stone or desintegrate that machine or erynies. But that is a far cry from being "dragged".
Take care Kaezar
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Post by starlandra on Jan 27, 2010 18:14:03 GMT
ok lets solve this dilemma! If funky will give ten of us a free level 60 toon, we will start a full open race / secret / no subby race hell party. I will give up my next couple of weeks worth of runs on my normal toons and we can compare logs to full bur subby parties. I say we make carbon copies of one of our current toons (I would be sick enough to do a staff monk even using something silly like prismatic half dragon) I am ready!
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Jan 27, 2010 18:28:00 GMT
If we only focus on one parameter at a time (ala Scientific Method), using a sub-optimal race will make you less effective, potentially decreasing your usefulness to the party and increasing the likelihood that you are "dragged". I couldn't dissagree with this more, in my experience, the lower tier the toon the less likely a player is to get dragged. They work harder to prove their build is viable. From what I have seen, certainly in hells, is that people are more likely to allow parties to drag them when using higher tier, mainly BUR subs, than anything else. Personally I'm getting to the point where I would quite happily take newer players with Rare Sub toons on their first hell runs than newer players with BUR race demi toons on those runs simply because I know they will play better and do more and know what they are doing. 1 example that springs to mind is some one telling me about a demi druid/cleric (can't remember which) that had to be told how to deal with Tears because they had only done the run once and didn't have a clue. Subrace tier is no excuse not to be effective in a party. Cata
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2010 19:53:38 GMT
Yes, maybe you'll have to use a little different spell mix. Depend a bit more on greater restore, or rest more. Take a few spells more to stone or desintegrate that machine or erynies. This is a key point for an open or secret sub-race DC based toon. Restores are the great leveller in Hells. A 62 or 64 DC stat toon with restore has the potential to be as effective as an unrestored immortal 66 or 68 DC stat toon. Based on critter saves after curse in Hell there is a huge jump in relative potential effectiveness from a 62 stat to a 68 stat and then the progression starts to smooth from 70 to 74. But player skill and party play out weigh all of this. Casters are generally much less useful if the bard fails to adequately curse, folks choose not to bestow, the druid fails to NB, the cleric fails to restore, pray or get stuff inside battletide aura, the XDD fails to stand next to stuff dropping its saves. In a party that's not operating cohesively an open sub race toon is at a rather large disadvantage compared to the 2xD BUR subrace toon with 74 in the DC stat who is able to overcome the lack of debuffing with some brute force. The open subrace toon can compensate by adjusting strategy and tactics accordingly although for some jobs this is not as easy as it used to be (you can't just spam bigby eights at everything anymore).
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Post by Yomi on Jan 27, 2010 21:41:29 GMT
On topic part first: I'm in the "give a little something to the subrace" camp just by looking at the stats/feats compared to the other races. Either a rage-related thing or something to help offset the -4 INT (could be barbarian based). More on that below after my ramblings.
Cata, Gand was trying to look at only one parameter, and I think it's clear that an extra +4 or so to the main stat, all else being equal, makes a toon more effective. DCs, AC, AB, damage, called shot DC, etc. I believe Cata's main objection is that he thinks the 'all else being equal' is never true, and in fact people overcompensate in other areas to make up for it. I'm dubious of that, but I agree things aren't equal. This caveat was clearly made by Gand in his first sentence.
Player quality makes a huge difference, and clever use of your build can also. RRrrock managed to make a Grimlock (open subrace) strength assassin that kicked some serious hells behind. He remade it as a Howler and I think he agrees it's better overall (+3 str, -2 dex, +6 con, +3 int). He could have demi'd his str assassin if he'd wanted to, and on the runs I've been on with him I sure wouldn't call him dragged. Heck, he started a whole new build trend. But +2
Similarly, Kobra keeps playing (and demi-ing) those darn kobolds (open subrace). There are certainly better subraces available in secret, UR, and BUR form (honestly there are better subraces available for some of his builds in open form...). While the character may not be ideal, he's pretty good at playing them well, and really makes up for it by being fast to think of solutions when things start going bad for the party.
As for build, take an imploder cleric and the DC difference is certainly meaningful, though not a deal breaker. I believe player ability is more important here also -- thinking about the party and how you fit into it. The good clerics manage to GR lots of people consistently and rack up crazy kill counts. Even with a non-optimal DC you can do a lot of good for the party. The bad clerics seem to be unable to GR or buff party members and can't kill much of anything either. Casting GR, UEF, etc. doesn't depend on your subrace. As Gandoron said, the Tin Can is a tank build that ends up gaining surprisingly little from moving up from an open subrace -- perhaps the least of any build.
Looking at races, there are some really nice secret (Any) races -- just nothing for str builds. Rak has +4 to CHA, Kenku gets +4 to WIS, Illithid has +5 to INT (admitedly these are premiere caster races and no base race gives plusses to these stats). There are also Wraith and Tiefling for nice DEX bonuses. STR tends to be Kurai, Prismatic, Minotaur, or Gnoll for the most part (along with others like Fire/Earth Genasi, Arctic Dwarf, Drey, Grimlock, etc.).
I'll also venture that given the way HG has evolved, there aren't many throw away stats any more, and I've found STR builds especially reach a point of diminishing return. Witness all the STR unitanks that throw huge points into DEX instead of continuing to raise STR. The casters can't get away with it since their DC is crucial and we're not close to saturating it like we are AB. STR assassins certainly want the huge starting strength, but most strength tanks would get as much out of 2 extra DEX or INT as they would out of 2 more STR. That negates a lot of the advantage of the high STR and CON half-ogre gets. Trying to get the DEX and INT to a point a good all-around tank wants (14 dex, 12 int) looks pretty painful with Half-Ogre, to the point where one is much better off with Gnoll, Fire Gen, Minotaur, or Kurai. I might even muse about a half-orc Wraith. Combine that with being slow, and no wonder it's not used much.
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