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Post by Shakua on Feb 20, 2010 4:17:34 GMT
I just pulled mine out of the closet since a very long time. Played a few hell levels with it, also tried a few abyss areas .
Current build is 12 ranger 23 blackguard, 5 harper scout The 5 harper was for the 2 extra favored enemy , bringing to a total of 5.
Non smiter, str based max craft weapon, as i was trying go for max attack bonus for disarm to work.
currently have 68 str, with an ab of 105 on first attack and this appears not to be enough to disarm even trash mobs in Avernus . And i have only found 2 mobs in the abyss i was able to disarm, their dcs seemed right, but everything else does not.
So if lashes are meant to disarm, this would be a few ideas Disarm 1) perhaps mobs should not get a 1d20 added to their high dc they already have. They already have an advantage even if they roll a 1, they still cannot be disarmed.
2) would be allow a lash of hatred a stacking penalty on discipline, but limit to such as half their str mod (70 str would allow up to a -15 penalty)
Armour Class Ac for strength based seems to be in the gutter. I know the use of crit immune is quite powerful. But being dispel able , and with the abyss requiring higher ac to tank most mobs, perhaps ac is in need of help
(current set up would be bur heavy armor, bur shield , max tumble, 17 deflect , 2 armor skin, 1 craft armor etc..) and only hitting 125 ac. you need a Strongheart for 128. Shouldn't be required to have this amulet to get decent ac though. and of course, you only get 3 more ac with an asmo artifact
Options would be quite nice, weather they was tailored just for this class or not.
1)Class added ability that only adds 1 point of ac for every 15 levels you have. caps out at 3, works only in heavy armor and shield 2)add in a specific lash armor that adds 2 points more ac, non stackable with girding 3) i have been eying the cania blackguard plate(Dreams of the Never born) for a very long time. This rare plate would become a well sought out item if it was usable by black guard control quasi classes. I like seeing value in hard to acquire items.
Also this question was put to me when i was talking with a guild mate.
Why is there a quasi class that is built around a pale masters spell? Should lashes not have the better version of infliction ?
(this would see rather odd a specialized quasi has less ac, dispellable crit immune and limited to favored enemy has a weaker version of infliction compared to a caster who has more ac, not limited to enemy and crit immunity )
Damage seems ok. Comparable to a 1 weapon paladin
I have not tried improved knockdown
flame away..
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Post by Acaos on Feb 20, 2010 5:20:39 GMT
Why is there a quasi class that is built around a pale masters spell? Should lashes not have the better version of infliction ? Just to make a quick note here - PMs (or any caster with Enervation) need to beat SR and the enemy needs to fail a Fortitude save. In addition, a significant number of enemies are immune to spells 4 and lower, which blocks Enervation. Lashes have no SR and no save against their ability, plus can use it an unlimited number of times (as long as Blade Thirst holds up). Acaos
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Feb 20, 2010 8:14:20 GMT
While I don't think the Immune Infliction needs any help, since as Acaos says it is already better than a PM version, since no SR, never runs out as long as BT holds, etc.
I guess for the STR version better AC would definitely be a help. Correct me if I am wrong but Lash's don't benefit from the Ranger AC bonus, perhaps make it so they do? It is a Ranger/BG Quasi so would fit. Perhaps if STR is higher than Dex then Lash's get the benefit of Ranger bonus AC? As long as wielding Shield and Whip?
I know from experience that it is quite easily achievable to have over 145 ac on a Dex Based Lash since that is what my Lash has and it isn't even in full BUR Gear, at least half of it coming from Rona.
Cata
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Post by kaezar on Feb 22, 2010 1:51:42 GMT
Well...
I'm ambivalent about this.
I mean, lash definetely took it hard on the head with last changes. The debuff immune change make it so they only debuff part of the critters' immunities instead of all, and the physical immunity change also hit them since they have only one damage type.
To boot, the disarming change means they only get to disarm/kb with insanely high ab. Possible to dexers, since upping their ab also buffs their defense, but hard on Str lashes, that have to choose. Impossible for smiters (although that is just an option, and it rightly has a price).
However, even PM's now drop immunities only by 30%, same as max lashes, and with the same restrictions. So I don't think it is adequate to think that the class got nerfed any more than the other. Less, in fact, since they didn't get hit with a reduction on their maximum debuff.
Where I think they really suffered is on their physical damage. Since by definition they use slash as their physical damage, they don't get to choose.
All in all, they really need a small boost. If their disarming/kd gets booted, it should be enough, I think.
Just as an aside, I don't think they need much help on defense, at least as it pertains AC. A medium armor lash can hit ac 134. I think a heavy armor one is 131. Which would leave a non-demi, no strongheart one at 126 (there is an amulet with +18 NA on LL) and there are ways to get 18 deflection for hard fights, getting you to 127). That is all girdless, without extra bonus from randomization (you can get at least +1 on girdless armor from that).
What inconvenienced lash (and other BG CC's) more is, imo, the limitation on spells, I think. 3 or 4 4th level spells is simply not enough for such a critical spell, in special as it is mord-able and breach-able.
The higher duration of BG critical immunity (not quite double since their maximum duration is 50 rounds, against paladin 30 rounds) is very much offset by the time between spawns. And if a critter gets the drop on the BG and dispells a Death Ward, it is 1/4 the allotment gone.
As only a foolhardy one goes enterely without on a hard run, it is kind of hard on lashes. They have to rest a lot, slowing party down. Or go a lot of time without critical immunity to save slots until they are really needed. Which leaves them open for a random to pop up on them and crit before they can cast.
So I think if the items that give extra bg spells (PoM ring, BG augments, iirc, abo shield) would be made to work that would be quite enough as a defense buff.
Take care Kaezar
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Post by Shakua on Feb 22, 2010 4:14:41 GMT
they woudnt need the crit immune as much if they has a bit more ac, i explained above how bad my ac is at demi 1 (since i was trying for for disarm ab), 24 dex (with +14 item) wont get enough wear medium armour
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Post by kaezar on Feb 22, 2010 12:56:22 GMT
Yeah, but you should still get up to 129 with heavy armor at demix1, without strongheart, not anything to write home about, but not terrible either. That would be 133 with gird. More than confortable.
I think the trouble you are having may be more related to demix1 penalties than the AC itself. I remember from my experience with my lash, that even though I wasn't hit often, the times I was hit *hurt*. In special without critical immunity.
Take care Kaezar
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Post by Shakua on Feb 22, 2010 21:41:31 GMT
I wouldnt think so, im not a bad tank builder :/ (20 or so toons i have 16 of them maybe tanks) and no i do not have 129 ac in heavy without strongheart) this is why i think they need an ac boost, considering its very hard to get skill points for craft armor .
and i shouldnt be required to ask for a cleric with girding either, i like playing stuff that can take care of its self. I would consider anything under 130 to be terrible if you wanted to play in the new areas
If i had rebuilt this as a normal blackguard, id end up with 2 more ac(cania plate). If i rebuilt this as a control class disarm dexer, probably end up with 135+ ac
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Post by uncanny on Feb 24, 2010 16:08:55 GMT
Get a DM or elder Vet to back you. Otherwise forget about it. Or, just to prove a point, it might get some attention. Who knows
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Post by the1kobra on Feb 24, 2010 16:42:49 GMT
Well, I've played a dexterity based lasher through the hells, and through part of the abyss. I'd have to say that his performance in the abyss is somewhat disappointing. I find that he's comparatively weak in the upper levels of hell, but gets comparatively stronger as he goes down. I've also had him for Ely, but I don't think he's built well for that.
A Dex lasher has exceptional defensive bonuses over a strength based one, mine can get his AC around the 140 mark, and gets around 50-55% coceal on his own camo.
Now granted, damage isn't great against the crittable crowd, you top out at 12-20X2, which means you essentially don't have crits against anything with parry. However, it's pretty solid against crit immune, and especially non negative immune and/or sneak-attack immune targets. You can get a good deal of sneak attack dice pretty easily. Also, if you're going by log evidence, it's a good idea to keep in mind that a lasher's attacks help the damage output of the entire party, not just themselves. This also helps a lot against tough boss monsters, as it helps your allies beat their regeneration.
A few of the downsides of lashers are that they don't get a lot of favored enemies, mine gets 3, you could get 4 by going to a 15/25 split, but you do lose some of your lasher goodies. I find that adding more ranger levels doesn't add very much. Most don't get listen, though this isn't a problem to pharlan lashers, or I suppose you can always take a ranger level at level 40 to help out with that.
I've never gotten the disarm/kd to work, of course, disarming with a small weapon before the change wasn't so great, and I find the current system kind of hard on disarmers/KDers period.
But overall, I don't really see them in need of too much help. They're solid, not terribly weak, and some of their weaknesses can be gotten around with clever building. I think that warchanters, caster AAs, slingers, DDs, etc, are in worse shape.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 24, 2010 17:45:42 GMT
Get a DM or elder Vet to back you. Otherwise forget about it. Or, just to prove a point, it might get some attention. Who knows This is trolling, plain and simple. Any more, and you're gone. Funky
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Post by Shakua on Feb 24, 2010 18:49:29 GMT
i dont think im worried about the damage they do, or the benefits they give rest of party (though i have no way to compare the same party with a lash and the 2nd party without)
as for other classes , different threads for each one? (and considering iv not played them, i cant give my input on them)
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Feb 24, 2010 19:44:02 GMT
Ok. I've thought about this a lot, and while the subject's come up, I'll put out my opinion also.
I love lash. Its the reason I made a tank. I didn't want to have too many characters, but I just had to have this one. And after making the first lash on the server, the first published lash build, the first lash demi, the first lash 5xD etc...I eventually had to reincarnate out of lash entirely. I went lash to BK, but didn't like certain issues BK has, so I pmed out some improvement suggestions and went from BK to BG. And thats where I am now.
I left lash, my favorite and beloved melee class, because after the last few changes I concluded that the class was dead. Thats right, dead. And I still hold that conclusion. This is why:
In the beginning, Lash infliction used to be physical + 5 elements. -30% maximum, determined by pre-LL BG level +2%. Only worked on your FEs. This was pretty great, because a 12/28 smite lash could get anything it wanted with outsider, abberation, and monsterous humanoid. Hell, Illithids, Rona - much of Dustbone - all the top end areas. Megadamage weapons didn't exist, so no real issue about which weapon type had which weapon available.
Now, things are different. The explosion of areas, and the explosion of different racial types WITHIN each area have changed that. Now I think these are good things - more areas for more fun, more racial types for pure rangers to pick their FEs intelligently, and to keep turners from being either *gods* or *useless* on a run, with nothing in between. But, as a side effect of these good changes, Lash really took it in the eye. Because without the right FE, you are a low damage, low crit multiplier, one handed slash tank. And with the changes to physical - that matters also. And increasing FEs lowers your infliction all the time, your crit immunity, your FoM caster level, and your divine might and shield duration, which hurts all the time.
But the thing that really nailed the coffin shut was the immunity shift. A lash cannot inflict something that has 100% or more immunity. To help balance that, the ability to inflict negative was added. But - in the end balance, the class is STILL junk, and here is why:
Analysis of guild-based KV data shows a trend. Turning specifically to Hell mobs as an example - all hell mobs have a minimum of 2 elements at 100% immunity. So 2 out of 5 elements are right out. The balance for this - neg infliction - has its own problems. KV data shows that basically any hell mob has 2 exotics at 100%. Which means that a large portion of the time, the neg infliction that is intended to balance out the loss of 2 elements - does not work. At all. Furthermore, with the predictable increases in paragon immunities, even monsters that COULD be neg inflicted at base monster type - CANNOT be at higher paragon levels. Which is a further loss.
And as for the arguments about how a lash helps the whole party? Well that only tracks against FEs they have. If the monster isn't FE, they get nothing. And due to the way paragon healing works, it turns out that a lash actually HINDERS the party on higher paragons, because they *can* inflict the healing element which causes the monster to heal *more* if someone makes a mistake. +30% more, x6 or 8!
And with the increase in undead, who always heal off neg, well, if you took undead as a FE, you heal them and increase their healing all day. And if you didn't, its just one more monster that you are a low damage low crit slash tank against, and are not helping the party.
To those who compare lash with enervation - don't. There's no comparison. Lash is built around the inflictions. It is the class skill, class benefit, class definition. PMs are not built around enervation. Their class benefit is silly high SR and Necro/Illus DCs. They KILL PEOPLE. They don't exist to enervate and nothing else. Yes, enervation has to beat a save and an SR check. But it also inflicts *everything*. Including magic, divine, positive. 3 types a lash never can. And it works on *anything* (not spell immune). No FE issues. But, yes, a lash never runs out and only has to deal with AC and conceal checks. And is more limited by FE and only able to get 6/9 damage types plus physical. So don't compare them.
Disarm and KD. Never work. Its a class skill, that can't be used, even if you max your AB. I'm sorry, but its broken. Either Lashes need a bonus of some kind to make it effective, or monsters need to be rebalanced. I don't have numbers on monster disc, so I can't really discuss that. But I can say that in all my hell runs with my lash, I was only ever able to get base, non paragon amnizus, and only then extremely rarely. So much so I stopped trying, because in nearly all cases they died before being disarmed. Pit fiends, balors, malebranches, cornegons? Forget it. Don't bother, it will not work.
Crit immunity and FoM. Now, FoM is important to have up due to recent additions. But a BG or BK or Lash will NEVER, EVER be able to cast it, despite having it. That is a silly thing, to have a skill but never be able to actually use it, and have to rely on others to do what you yourself can do. The reason they won't do it is they need crit immunity too badly. Their short duration, mordable, breachable, dispellable, MSDable crit immunity. Its too valuable to use as FoM.
Low AC on str tanks make crit imm mandatory. Higher AB on Abyss mobs does too. Moly Dev Crit does also. But, combined with all the ways to lose it, and lower rest ring allowances (abyss), and relatively short duration (and the way groups waste time), make this really painful for Lash as well as BG/BK - and their parties. No one likes a carpet tank, and continual staggered resting slows parties and adds run time. And if a lash has splashed more ranger or harper scout for more infliction types, they're shortening their crit imm duration and increasing their need to rest or fight without it at the same time. Which is bad for everyone.
Pallies get shorter duration yes, but they also can get more spells - since their wisdom and spellslot gear boosts their slots. So not only can a Lash/BG/BK type not split their slots to be able to buff themselves, they have to beg for spells they already have. This is not a good thing IMO.
Conceal. With the changes to lash mass camo, this is another case where a lash is begging for Displace because their own self conceal isn't good enough. Yes, its boosted by hide, but hide is not a BG skill. Even if you take ranger at 23, the last level you can take it to qualify, a 12/28 lash's conceal will be horrid. But a ranger CC lash will have pathetic infliction. Which is kinda the class purpose. And considering that 2/6 to 3/6ths of your available infliction types just plain will not work ever, losing maximum %s is really a bad plan.
Skillpoints, generally, A CC BG gets 2 per level. Some of which is going to be sunk into hide. Now, you need Disc, Conc, Tumble, Listen on every tank, period. Any tank without those four should just reinc now and stop being a drag on your party. Making their own conceal spell based on a skill they don't have in class is kinda rough on a lash, but also things a smite lash might use - like taunt - are out of reach. And someone who wants to disarm, would dump into craft weapon to max ab - thats also out of reach. This is a problem.
Weapon selection. With the wide variety of monsters that heal on something now, megadamage weapons are a way to focus attacks and not heal. This is a good thing. Now, I know that no weapon type has all damage types available. This is fine. But looking at the lash specifically - there is ONE whip. Out of 5 elemental types, and 9 areas where single-mega weapons drop plus 1 where 3-type megas drop...there is ONE whip. Considering there is a class that is entirely and completely dependent on whips, and by virtue of its class power actually causes healing monsters to heal MORE when someone screws up OR they themselves are using a whip with the wrong damage type, perhaps adding a second or third mega-whip to the existing LL areas might not be a bad thing?
In the end, I have to conclude that my favorite class is dead...because a lash doesn't add much to a party facing a wide variety of monster types, boosts significantly less damage types on a smaller number of monsters, and actually increases monster healing when someone makes a mistake - which actually hurts the party. Combine that with weaker than average defense - AC, Conceal, and Physical % all - and limited offense - single weapon choice, low crit modifier, lower base damage, poor weapon selection - their benefits just don't offset their weaknesses.
What would help - some combination of the following, I'm not arguing for *all*: - Make lash conceal spell dependent on level, not skill points, and raise it - Add another megadamage weapon or two. Perhaps to Dulvuroth, or Hive - Bonus to lash KD/Disarm based on class. So it is effective with 100-105 base AB - Return lash infliction to the way it was. Physical + 5 elements, period. - Turn lash bonus damage on FE from negative to internal - Find a way to grant additional FEs on acquisition of the lash quasiclass title - to raise base target availability - Count ranger + BG base levels towards infliction, to allow more ranger level builds to be viable, to allow for more target types. - Make Lash crit immune based on Divine Shield instead of using BG spells for source and duration. - Raise the priority of bringing BG spells into book form (and thus able to benefit from slot gear and gear based wisdom modifier bonus) - Make Corrupt Weapon for lashes only do something different to any critter, instead of only being nonstacking divine damage to only good creatures.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 24, 2010 21:32:16 GMT
A few thoughts in response: Which means that a large portion of the time, the neg infliction that is intended to balance out the loss of 2 elements - does not work. This is misleading. While your point that neg inflict won't work on a fair number of creatures, neither would the lost eles on a fair number. It's still an offsetting benefit. Given that the large majority of enemies in high level areas are one type, Outsider, this is far from compelling. This is a good point - there's a good chance we'll change this, since it doesn't make a lot of sense. Given that everything sandwiched between those two sentences was a comparison of the two, that's a bit silly. The fact that there are significant differences between the two doesn't mean they aren't useful points of comparison. We're also looking at revising this, as you know from the DM forums. It would have been clearer just to say 'too few spell slots', as you do below. How many do you have, exactly? As you note, this is also slated for improvement, though it has been low priority for a long time. It's certainly a disadvantage to be force to rely on others for vital defensive buffs, but this is a party server, remember. What % is 'isn't good enough'? You may have missed it, but concealment is much less common in the Abyss than in the Hells - so Listen is comparitively less important, though still obviously a good skill to have. Likewise, you don't need that much Conc, and only need it for a few enemies, thus far. This seems reasonable enough, though of course there's always crafting. Funky
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Post by Shakua on Feb 24, 2010 21:42:34 GMT
I think i agree on the skills, and when i build a tank, i dont build it for one area , i know it would keep it me playing longer , but it would ruin my enjoyment at the same time. having the same tank remade for Hells, ely, abos , LL and abyss is not on my agenda when im trying keep exp on main toons.
and for mass camo, i know its a party server, but why give them a buff that somebody else can cast better?
More megadamage whips be nice too, course you can craft, but it does not do the same as a megadamage whip
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 24, 2010 22:15:32 GMT
and for mass camo, i know its a party server, but why give them a buff that somebody else can cast better? I can think of a number of reasons - first and foremost, that 'somebody' isn't always going to be on that run, let alone free to buff you when you want. By this logic, we shouldn't have GMW, or Pariah +15...simply because of IoF? Doesn't follow. Funky
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