|
Post by atomicsomething on Apr 12, 2010 22:27:09 GMT
I dont think any weapon will actually get the 3 iteration thing as DB describes it. The sheet shows that the "3 iteration value" have a 150% coef over "5 iteration value", so only two extra attacks. It's only applied to double and monk weapons ; i'm guessing it's there to simulate the xtra attacks granted in those cases : 4 main + 2 off hands or 6 monk attacks.
But i could be wrong ... i dont get why the "6 iteration value" is 92.5%... and the other coefs are so well rounded. I'm guessing (one more time) it's there to simulate the AB loss ... but it should be applied to all if that was the case. (got it, 2,5% is not significant)
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 13, 2010 18:24:08 GMT
large sized toons have a lot less weaponry to choose from. Large toons have a whole new size class to choose from, encompassing the Lance and Merc Greatsword. Yes, they're being added, and they'll be two-handed for large critters. I also don't believe they have a damage +% adjustment for weapons with 2 types of physical damage. We do - it's right at the top, 120%. Obviously this is area dependant, but it isn't nearly as subjective as the iteration values (see below). Also all the large Martial weapons get owned by those changes. All 3 get reduced significantly. -G They got the 1.5 damage as an offset, remember. Note that that spreadsheet represents nothing more than our best guess as to comparative values. The numbers rely on working assumptions about value, most especially the value of iterations, which are in turn reliant on the relative ac and ab of monster vs player. Other factors, like damage resistance, would also have an effect. It is, in our estimation, the most balanced setup we could reach given the inputs available for modification, but you shouldn't read it as bible truth. Funky
|
|
|
Post by tyranlthixis on Apr 13, 2010 19:03:03 GMT
One of the things I have seen other games do (D&D related) is make longsword more available than other weapon types. In our case there would be a longsword mega damage weapon in every area that houses them. What you would lose in overall power you would gain in flexibility. Not sure if Funky would actually be interested in that but I thought I'd write it down for future consideration.
Tyranlthixis
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on Apr 13, 2010 19:19:59 GMT
Does a large sub using a size 4 weapon receive a 1.5 str mod…or only a med sub using it 2-handed? Large races with Large weapons used to have some innate advantage on damage. I couldn’t see a med toon using a halberd 2-handed over a double-weapon like the dire mace. Heck the Handaxe has a 2.00 (WM7+DC) output, same as the GreatAxe. It doesn’t look like the 1.5x or .5x is added to the spreadsheet (which makes sense), so that will need to be taken into consideration depending on the str mod…or will 1.5-.5x affect ALL damages from the weapon.
Iterations and damage for each iteration also depend on BAB. A 5 iteration allows you to have only 16BAB and receive max att/rnd, while a 4 iter drops max attacks at below 17 and iter 3 is 19 (unless the hard cap of 6 primary attacks is left in place, in which case 16 BAB would give max attacks).
For large weapons, I was actually comparing this to scythe, the gap in damage has widened significantly. Halbred used to be 18-20 x2 now is 20x2 versus scythe at 20x4.
-G
|
|
|
Post by MightyKhan on Apr 13, 2010 21:49:40 GMT
Large toons have a whole new size class to choose from, encompassing the Lance and Merc Greatsword. Yes, they're being added, and they'll be two-handed for large critters. Granted. But I wasn't talking about 2handers. But this 1,5x damage is only for those characters that do not use those weapons one-handed, ie medium toons (heh, looks like small 2handers will have an advantage over medium!). Hence the offset is only there for medium sized toons. What I am trying to point out is the change as depicted in the sheet would unfavorably affect large sized toons that want sword+board. Especially Dragon Disciples, who are already relatively low on damage output. w/DC Normal: Lsword & Gsword: 1.70 Exotic: Bsword & [void]: 2.05 What advantage would large size then have over medium? (Again, I am not talking about 2handers.)
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on Apr 13, 2010 21:57:00 GMT
MK, scythe or a double weapon is actually a pretty good choice for large "exotic" builds.
-G
|
|
|
Post by MightyKhan on Apr 13, 2010 22:10:39 GMT
Scythe has a double damage type, so it is not really comparable to the Bastard sword.
If the idea was, however, that Double Weapons (along with Scythe) are going to be the large equivalent of Bastard Sword, then that's ok, as long as the -2 AB penalty is fixed.
(Though I may remember this wrongly - I have not recently tested it with an RDD.. but will be able to in a few days.)
Still doesn't mean I like it - I prefer the looks and attack animations of the greatsword - but at least they're not disadvantaged.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 14, 2010 1:18:15 GMT
Does a large sub using a size 4 weapon receive a 1.5 str mod…or only a med sub using it 2-handed? Yes. Medium subs can't use size 4 weapons at all. Funky
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Apr 14, 2010 8:07:08 GMT
I am still confused how two handed weapons with are getting boosted to be at least equal to double weapons.
example: Let us take a medium toon with ITWF, 10 str mod and 20 BAB who can chose between great sword and double sword. Both these weapons can do 10 slashing and 10 fire damage. Beating on crit immune mob, for simplicity, all attacks land.
great sword: 4 attacks (20 15 10 5), each dealing 25 slashing, 15 fire damage, that is 100 slashing and 60 fire at the end of round.
double sword: 6 main hand attacks (18 15 12 9 6 3) each dealing 20 slashing + 10 fire, 2 off-hand attacks (18 15) dealing 15 slashing + 10 fire, that is 150 slashing and 80 fire.
result: physical damage increased by 50%, elemental damage increased by 33%, when choosing a double weapon over two handed weapon.
Of course, I did not take in account immunities, resistances, critical hits etc. and assumed all attacks actually hit. But even when I make a tank I need to decide what my primary targets will be: crit immune mobs (who cannot be handled in other way but brutal fire power, such as PFs) - then I make a hard-hitter; or trash, but still annoying, crit vulnerable critters (raks, erins,...) - then I make a CS ranger/assassin; or a mixture.
For a hard-hitter in the first case (who has to go without shield, taking advantage of high str bonus) only raw damage matters, stripped of critical range and multiplier - and double weapons seem to be superior in this regard.
Are the 3 feats (TWF, Ambidexterity and ITWF) making the cost of this?
Or, maybe, if I missed something, can anybody explain it to me please?
simpetar
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on Apr 14, 2010 12:29:36 GMT
Funky,
Did you mean size 5 weapons? all double weapons, dire mace, double axe, etc are all size 4 weapons (or at least on the Critical sheet they are).
-G
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Apr 14, 2010 12:32:08 GMT
On a related note, the spreadsheet says two handed weapons will receive x1.5 str to all damage. Does this include
1. unresistable damage (divine might, mighty rage, bard song,...) 2. weapon buffs (FW, thundering rage, shadow rift,...) 3. mega-damage weapons (uro, sissy, abo, abyss,...)?
simpetar
|
|
|
Post by MightyKhan on Apr 14, 2010 14:04:25 GMT
my guess: 1. no 2. no 3. yes
|
|
|
Post by Yojimbo on Apr 14, 2010 17:11:54 GMT
Funky, Did you mean size 5 weapons? all double weapons, dire mace, double axe, etc are all size 4 weapons (or at least on the Critical sheet they are). -G I think in code Huge is Size 4 and Tiny is Size 0 giving you 5 Sizes so you could both be right The 1.5x thing is if your toon is wielding the weapon 2 handed, which when equipped you should see, then you will get the multiplier.
|
|
|
Post by starlandra on Apr 14, 2010 19:16:23 GMT
I would guess
1 no 2 yes 3 yes
|
|
|
Post by drunkenboaster on Apr 14, 2010 19:27:06 GMT
Why would you think unresistable damage not be included in the 1.5 multiplier when it is already included into crit multiplier?
I would think weapon damage buffs would not because they already are not included in critical hit multiplier.
|
|