Swiss Army Tank (R42, Dr5, Sh13)

[jonuhey]

First, Im not sure, but I think the Wisdom is the ability that increase both your str and dex, I think if you get a 18 wisdom shifter to level 60, it will have a very low str/dex stat, not sure as I never really checked this.

Second, the +4 to dex in that sub will be overrided everytime you shift, even if you have 20 dex and one of your forms have 12 dex, it will shift directly to 12, and you would lose the reflex saves bonus on it, unlike the feat where you shoul still keep it (this is not counting item bonus).

Johnny

[tomaan]

Jan 15, 2011 10:35:07 GMT @uncanny said:

Makes sense. Actually now thinking of Half-Kyton as Zeny gets Str while HK gets Con - str being kinda pointless and all. With the extra dex (+2 to reflex saves) I think you could drop the lightening reflexes and take Alertness in its place, still keeping the same other feats

You definitely need lightning reflexes as it applies to your shifted forms and is a must-have for any non-dex form. I'm even finding that, with Hells penalties, reflex save on my Risen Lord form is much too low (53 in Dis). It's low enough that I'm even considering dropping LFF3:Undead (or LSA: Tumble) for Legendary Reflexes.

Either that or I'll have to find the saves arty.

[dragonledak]

Another key factor was the fact that weapon damage does NOT apply to unarmed forms.

This is not true. Weapon damage does apply to unarmed forms it just does not show up on your character sheet. Try attacking something while shifted into an unarmed form. Also I like this build as it is a different way to go by maximizing your ranger buffs as much as you can.

Also on my shifter tank (decided to go with wildshape/humanoid/undead epode) I was debating whether to use gnome base anarch or human based. Is it an issue for you not being able to wield medium sized weapons in combination with tower shields for more gear versatility.

[darc]

Maybe read the Undead Epode and use those three feats to cover saves (and anything else you might like)?

EDIT: reading the epode would requires swapping Undead I-III for Wildshape I-III so no net gain in feats but at least you'd get Wildshape FF

[dragonledak]

You can't use Epodes without Wildshape LFF 3. So good idea but sadly it is not possible if he wants to keep Humanoid and Undead Focuses.

[tomaan]

Mar 14, 2011 21:18:38 GMT dragonledak said:

Another key factor was the fact that weapon damage does NOT apply to unarmed forms.

This is not true. Weapon damage does apply to unarmed forms it just does not show up on your character sheet. Try attacking something while shifted into an unarmed form. Also I like this build as it is a different way to go by maximizing your ranger buffs as much as you can.

Also on my shifter tank (decided to go with wildshape/humanoid/undead epode) I was debating whether to use gnome base anarch or human based. Is it an issue for you not being able to wield medium sized weapons in combination with tower shields for more gear versatility.

corrected in the post.

Dire Tiger with no LFF had a max ab of 95 and ac of 125.

I'd imagine that, with LFF3, AB would probably hit 100+ and AC 130 or so....similar to the humanoid forms.

The only drawback is that I wasn't getting my BT enchantment added to my AB in Dire Tiger Form, which means I couldn't reach max AB without bardsong and maybe gloves(?).

Might be worth checking out, but I'm going to stick with the build as posted - at least until I get out of the hells (haven't been playing too much lately and stuck in Phleg).

EDIT - Missed the other half of your question. size hasn't been an issue. I went with Gnome to get the extra skill points. Currently using a light hammer/small shield - don't have a lot of BURs so "versatility" isn't a major concern for me.

[tomaan]

Mar 15, 2011 20:08:46 GMT darc said:

Maybe read the Undead Epode and use those three feats to cover saves (and anything else you might like)?

EDIT: reading the epode would requires swapping Undead I-III for Wildshape I-III so no net gain in feats but at least you'd get Wildshape FF

Unfortunately, you need 16 levels of Shifter to get LFF Wildshape, which means a significant nerf to Ranger spells, which would max at CL 39 - not sure if the extra 5% conceal, elem absorbtion, duration, etc is a deal-breaker, but have definitely taken advantage of them.

[uncanny]

Just curious.. it doesn't look like you're using the kobald shape at all. I've been running a build with a similar frame as this. Main difference is probably four levels - I went slightly more shifter than ranger, so that I could get wildshape and use an epode for human, as I like some of the abilities provided by wildshape). It's still a cc Ranger, so I'm getting the main benefits of ab, but there's a few benefits at the moment. I'd say the SAT build here is best for a solo'er - I'm not brave enough to do so yet . Also, using Mino as an alternative str tank as getting turned as Risen Lord really sucks.

Question I had is, I don't see Kobold anywhere in your list of shape usage. Wouldn't Kobald be an ideal Dex tank to match out the str tank of Risen Lord?

[tomaan]

Dec 7, 2011 12:45:37 GMT @uncanny said:

Just curious.. it doesn't look like you're using the kobald shape at all. I've been running a build with a similar frame as this. Main difference is probably four levels - I went slightly more shifter than ranger, so that I could get wildshape and use an epode for human, as I like some of the abilities provided by wildshape). It's still a cc Ranger, so I'm getting the main benefits of ab, but there's a few benefits at the moment. I'd say the SAT build here is best for a solo'er - I'm not brave enough to do so yet . Also, using Mino as an alternative str tank as getting turned as Risen Lord really sucks.

Question I had is, I don't see Kobold anywhere in your list of shape usage. Wouldn't Kobald be an ideal Dex tank to match out the str tank of Risen Lord?

I actually re-did this build (changes posted) and have been using kobold quite a bit more than when I first created it. Lizardfolk does pretty well on dex checks, but I found myself switching to kobold more and more for the Malebranches. Plus, I didn't even try setting traps with it, and will be with this new version.

The extra shifter levels should work out fine -- all you really lose is ab and conceal on your ranger spells, which you can get around with IOF or druid epic conceal.

[uncanny]

Dec 7, 2011 18:02:03 GMT tomaan said:

Plus, I didn't even try setting traps with it, and will be with this new version.

Actually.. the traps can be pretty handy. I've been using them (sometimes stacked upon stacks) since early LL levels.

I find that you need to place quite a couple though to make a decent dent in bigger mobs; but if you gather them up in a nice clump you can get pretty good amounts of pre-battle damage dealt. Definitely not as flexible as a real trapper (static damage types, would be nice to have options to tweak against healing/immunities), but good enough to help.

[uncanny]

Something else I noticed with my alterations... actually, an unexpected surprise.. was the use of damage soaking on Gargoyle. Running around in Fey using Drow had me hit every so often for 35-55 dmg, which I guess is my fault as I kitted for regen (regen rocks with shifter if you get enough, since you don't really care about some specific kit features . Tried this out using a gargoyle and when added to elemental shields it suppressed practically everything. It has a weapon even though it isn't shown on the shifted form (it's a falchion iirc); though I didn't check if the buffs transferred to it.

The drider also has a spear, which can be buffed up to perform quite well even without lff.

All in all.. I think there's space for a few options in the build. Still not quite sure the loss of buff potency is worth the wildshapes at lff3, but.. looking closer now

[tomaan]

Finally got this Demi x1!

He performed well throughout the Hells, using Risen Lord primarily in shallow layers for damage and insta kills and then switching to Lizardfolk and Kobold in deep layers for party support (kd & rez) and survivability (went toe-to-toe with Pit Fiends, Malebranches and just about everything else).

Updated the build with party roles for different forms and updated advantages to include Dodge AC bonus from Polymorph Self: Pixie - which all but eliminates the (pre-demi) Hells AC penalty.

If you're looking for a high damage build or ability mage, this is definitely not the build you want. But if you're looking for something that can tank anything and still help the party at the same time, this is a very fun option.

[desocupado]

Hehe, indeed is fun to use humanoid in hells:
Kobold --> Malebranch, either trap or plain good dex is enough
Lizard > Stuff that takes long to kill like pit fiend and bosses
Drow/Risen > Trash mobs (Tough drow is better for advespa as it have high Dex, Risen works on more stuff, right?)
Kenku > Enemies spawned on non-meleeable places

[CataclysmicDeath]

I dunno, Melee Humanoid Shifters can do some nifty damage in hells. I just got my Humanoid Shifter demi x 1 and did around 290k damage.

Cata

[Shroomery_]

What weapon/form did you use most cata?