Kaezer brings up one point I intend to mention and forget by the ends of my rants. Subby's are one the issue but I as we can tell there are plenty of solid Theurge builds w/ current subs. The other issue is gear there is a good bit of gear Theurges get cut off from and there is only 1 peice of gear made with Theurge in mind. I think more gear suited to assist Theurges would be a great benefit to the class. I don't know if my issues with my Theurge are just due to my inexperience w/ casters, lack of gear, current level of 56, or a combination of factors. On the note about 1/2 mod not being enough I did some rough math for my own Theurge at max INT & WIS including +14s, Arti, & 2x Demi the DC difference between the spells was ~4 which is a lot but to me if the goal is to get it low but usable I think that looks like a good number for it.
I have to agree with KE, Chain, and Kaezar here. I've partied with numerous theurges, both of the arcane and divine types, and all have been very good. Kaezar has one, Sithdad has a couple, Perin has at least one, and they're all very good. Divine Theurges have often been the only imploder on runs I've done, and you can never tell a difference. The defense on divine theurges is just sick, with the mage buffs you get piled on top of normal Clerical ones (aside from Gate, which doesn't work for quasiclasses). And arcane theurges REALLY excel from having Prayer, Battletide, and Greater Restoration at their fingertips (not to mention other spells like Circle of Doom that also lowers saves).
From what I've seen, arcane theurges are death machines on crack, due to their great instakill arcane spells, coupled with Greater Restorations (no hells pens), Prayer (lower saves), and Battletide (lower saves more). And their higher spell pen makes Prayer hit more easily to boot.
Divine theurges are Imploders with mage buffs like Ethereal Visage. A Cleric, with nice AC (due to Monk splash typically), then with ~70-80% conceal? Yes please!
So yes, you lose 1 DC, but that really only affects you in late-game. And to that point, having Greater Restorations at your fingertips ameloriates the hells pens altogether, so you're really not losing much at all. And in many areas, Spell Pen is better than DC's anyway (one reason you see a lot of pure casters now - they want that +1 or 2 SP).
I would love to see a BUR subrace added for this quasiclass, but I don't think it needs any boost other than that. Yes, it's gear-dependent; more so than a normal caster. But that's expected, being a quasi using two caster classes. The only boost I can really see making is giving them a few extra slots, ala Sorcerers, because balancing non-Tia caster gear would result in lower spell slots, and I'm not sure that we want to require certain gear to make a quasiclass viable/playable. What I mean by that is, the quasiclass shouldn't require full Tia gear to work.
I see I wasn't very clear on this point, so forgive me for the need to clarify.
I don't mean there need to be a bunch of new theurge-specific items. It is just that the one that is there is sub-optimal. The devotions of mystra Grants a few spell slots and a bonus to int and wis that could easily come from another item, in exchange for an advantage (+1 to sp from fist wrap) that is the meat and drink of theurges.
I use it for now, but if I ever get my hands on an aug with 3rd level cleric spells, it is going right into the vault. Other than that, I am more or less satisfied with the item. In fact, you most feel the loss of spells on lower levels. And don't let me start talking about an ur aug with 8 and 3rd level slots. : )_
Comparing spells slots with my loot mage wields the following Arc Th: 52 9th 40 8th 32 7th Loot Mage: 63 9th 54 8th 41 7th
Strangely enough, I feel the pinch most keenly at level 7, where the difference is the least. I think that's because while the absolute difference is the smaller, the also smaller number of spells makes it more significant. I don't feel a pinch at all on high-level cleric spells, with the possible exception of level 8 slots (greater restoration!), but even that's easy to fix.
That also happens on the lower level spells, till it hits level 3, where the smelly stuff really hits the rotary air propeler. And not on arcane spells, but on divine. Only 10 level 3 cleric slots really really sucks, I get all prayers and that is still the spell I most often end up running through during a run.
So while I think it would be nice to have more theurge items, it is by no means a build-breaking need. Even the than robe is a good item, I only am sorry it will inevitably end up on the vault.
Jut to clarify the intent of my earlier post: I wasn't trying to argue that theurges are underpowered, bad, etc. If anything quite the opposite.
Even without ever seeing one in action, just "on paper" alone the synergies that others have pointed out (i.e. arcane insta-focused caster with Prayer and Battletide) make it seem to me that while no doubt still suffering a bit from HG's "tendency to reward specialization and punish generalization" (especially for casters), theurges are far from in dire need of what in my opinion would be nigh-overpowering improvements such as access to both arcane and divine epics or some sort of mechanic for boosted DCs.
Shrug, on the other hand I'm not saying that I think the theurge is amazing just based "on paper" and on what others who have chimed in here have said--but I do think that this quasi is a good example of a tendency by players to never be satisfied with something that takes more thought, planning, and care (both in building as well as in play) to execute to full potential. This may be treading a bit off course here but along the same lines, my thouhts on this tend to go hand-in-hand with the current complaints about the bard...if you ask me it seems like people are--ultimately, at the most basic level of the argument--just unsatisfied with stuff being hard and time-consuming and not as "uber" as they'd like it to be. It seems to me that the more a game like HG evolves the more there is a desire, if not demand, by a lot of players to be able to *not just* keep up with the increased challenges but also completely dominate them as quickly and easily as in the past. So the theurge can't have *both* Miracle *and* Transmute Barrier...so the theurge can't have *both* full-power Contingency *and* Gate...take a minute to think about what you're getting in exchange and alter your playstyle to make maximum usage of the differences...to be quite honest I think expecting anything else is ultimately derived from dissatisfaction with not being able to play the crazy uber toon that can do it all than any more pure motive.
For the race part: I heard rumors over a year ago about a BUR Drow Noble Race...+6 Int +4 Wis if Male -- +4 Int +6 Wis if Female...not sure why it never went in...I think it would be a great addition.
For the gear part: Theurges have one piece of set loot specifically for them atm...that's one more piece than DD's, SD's, Slingers, RDD's, Staffmaster's, CoT's, WM's and BFM's get....(not counting the odd lowbie items)....I'm would love to see Theurges get some more class specific gear but also believe the other classes deserve some also...
I agree that other QCs need some gear for them too. Im not sure about all the Prestige classes mostly as Im not sure what beyond the current ego augments you could do for many of them as outside of Assassin and Blackguard the others don't have spell slots to put on gear. I do think there needs to be more UR and BUR items with AS & BG spell slots if there even are any atm.
Lets begin a thread maybe for Class specific item ideas
Post by evilkittenofdoom on Jan 28, 2011 21:00:22 GMT
All right, you've made your case. After having taken into consideration a number of things that have been brought up here, I can say thay they don't really need a boost, per se. Granted, much of my experience with a Theurge is largely out-dated information, as well as out-dated playstyle (I wasn't exactly very good at the game at the time; a likely reason here) but my reasoning for the original post wasn't to make a 'perfect' 'do it all' build; rather I felt at the time that it was lacking. That has now changed based on the previous points posted, and for that I want to thank those who put in information from what they've done, seen done and know works.
I do, however, have one last thing involving Theurges.
How does Gate function? Does the spell automatically select the Wiz/Sorc version because the Cleric one is entirely unavailable, or does it base it on CC? If on CC, then what if you're a cleric CC?
Fear is the darkroom in which negatives are developed. - Found on a Fortune Cookie
I believe Yojimbo is correct; according to the last time I looked at the spell description Gate functions normally (i.e. as base NWN) for a cleric with a quasiclass. It only casts the special HG version if you are not a member of a qausiclass.
Post by evilkittenofdoom on Apr 22, 2012 17:25:33 GMT
Old thread, but it's the most appropriate rather than making a new one IMO. Anyhow...
Theurges get ESF : Spellcraft for free.... and yet it serves no purpose. The saves bonus is within the +20 cap, so that's effectively useless. For Identifying spells and counterspelling, any caster who maxes spellcraft can do both of these without error in my experience.
Might there be some benefit added for Theurges to make use of this? Perhaps something along the lines of +1 SP per 60 pts? Seeing as Spell Penetration is kinda their niche, having theirs above most other casters in exchange for a -1 CL which hurts several spells badly, I figure that's something along the lines of beneficial to them without being unbalanced.
Either way, something to make that useful would be appreciated.
(...and for anyone curious, to answer my own ancient question. Gate functions as per the spellbook you cast it from. If cast from the Wizard spell book, it is Translocate. If from the Cleric one, you've just effectively wasted a spell slot =P )
Fear is the darkroom in which negatives are developed. - Found on a Fortune Cookie